Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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You go, girl! You rock!
Isn't it amazing how many here complain about things not found in scripture!? This isn't found in scripture. That is isn't found. And the megabytes of irony is that while specific terms or phrases are not found that Reformed folks use, the concepts certainly are. Yet...in the case of "free will" neither the phrase or concept is to be found anywhere in scripture!
When God "came down" to rescue the ancient Hebrews, through Moses, in Egypt, they were in bondage to Pharaoh. They had no power to escape on their own. But so many people here don't want to make the connection between the type and antitype. It's precisely because man is totally powerless to fix what Adam broke that salvation is so often portrayed in supernatural language, e.g. "resurrection", "circumcision made without hands", etc.
But this rejection of the miraculous nature of salvation, overt, tacit or otherwise, is truly the way of the world, isn't it? This is why all the world's religions, all the ungodly collective "wisdom" of religious people insists that each of us build our own Tower of Babel to reach God in Heaven through our "good" works, through law-keeping, through our faith, through our "free" will, through our conscience, etc. All the world's religions, save for biblical Christianity, teach that man can redeem himself or contribute to our own redemption by "collaborating" with God or by some other means.
I beg your pardon, then. Then you're not a free willer in the autonomous sense?
For your info, I am and I'm not! I maintain that God's image-bearers have the same moral capacity that our Image Maker does! That is to say, God cannot sin and Man cannot not sin precisely for the same reason: Their Essence or Nature. Their wills are controlled by their nature. God is free to do all that is in accordance with his nature; and so is man. But neither the Law of Identity or Scripture gives either God or Man the power to transcend or circumvent their essence. Therefore, in the cases of God and Man, both have wills that are free from external force. But those wills are not free internally, i.e. in the autonomous sense.
https://christianchat.com/threads/m...k-calvinism-is-unbiblical.215127/post-5311987
Mem said:
How should we receive Jesus' declaration that He stands at the door and knocks? That for some those knocks are muted?
@cv5 said:
Oh its worse than that.
According to @Cameron143 and @Magenta ,
-God's offer of repentance is fraudulent
-repentance never actually occurs
-the repenters are the victim of an hoax and have actually been kidnapped
-the kidnap victims are headed to a shotgun wedding far beyond their choice or control
-those that God does NOT kidnap are the losers in the VIP kidnapping lottery
-these losers were created by God and then purposely abandoned, so that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire
In other words, they think that Holy God is a scheming tyrant, unjust judge, kidnapper with wholly nefarious attributes.
Mem said:
How should we receive Jesus' declaration that He stands at the door and knocks? That for some those knocks are muted?
@cv5 said:
Oh its worse than that.
According to @Cameron143 and @Magenta ,
-God's offer of repentance is fraudulent
-repentance never actually occurs
-the repenters are the victim of an hoax and have actually been kidnapped
-the kidnap victims are headed to a shotgun wedding far beyond their choice or control
-those that God does NOT kidnap are the losers in the VIP kidnapping lottery
-these losers were created by God and then purposely abandoned, so that they will spend eternity in the lake of fire
In other words, they think that Holy God is a scheming tyrant, unjust judge, kidnapper with wholly nefarious attributes.
Magenta said:
I am of the mind that free will does not exist and is nowhere presented in the Bible in the way people use the words.
@cv5 said:
Except for unfallen Adam and Eve, fallen Adam and Eve, unfallen Satan, fallen Satan, unfallen Angels, fallen Angels, and the Trinity.
Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Cameron143 said:
I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature.
@cv5 said:
Your pretentions in the matter are utterly demolished effortlessly in just a few of passages.
And there are HUNDREDS more to back these up.
Mat 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Rev 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Act 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Gen 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
God gave the land of Caanan at least 400 years to repent (more like 642). They did not. Then came the judgement.
Except for the Gibeonites. Who DID repent. They believed God (doubtless their spies had the Scriptures themselves!), recognized their CERTAIN DOOM, heeded God's warning, sued for peace, no conditions. Were acquitted, and secured a covenant of peace and life. Which they scrupulously maintained throughout their entire history. The most loyal and committed group of GENTILE believers in all of the Bible.
Bet you did not know any of that.......right @Cameron143 ?
I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature.
@cv5 said:
Your pretentions in the matter are utterly demolished effortlessly in just a few of passages.
And there are HUNDREDS more to back these up.
Mat 12:41
The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
Rev 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Act 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Gen 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
God gave the land of Caanan at least 400 years to repent (more like 642). They did not. Then came the judgement.
Except for the Gibeonites. Who DID repent. They believed God (doubtless their spies had the Scriptures themselves!), recognized their CERTAIN DOOM, heeded God's warning, sued for peace, no conditions. Were acquitted, and secured a covenant of peace and life. Which they scrupulously maintained throughout their entire history. The most loyal and committed group of GENTILE believers in all of the Bible.
Bet you did not know any of that.......right @Cameron143 ?
All of this is waaaaaay past your pay grade buddy. Always has been, probably always will be. Sad really.
The Gibeonites lied and were saved regardless.
So there is that.
Have you ever clearly stated you agreement with or your objections to the popular in some quarters Total Depravity/ Omin-faceted Imperfection doctrine?
Have you ever clearly stated your agreement with or your objections to the popular in some quarters Irresistible grace doctrine?
Are you willing to do so now? What if anything do you object to in those two doctrinal claims?
What point is there to the "slave of sin" analogy, and the claim that a slave of sin cannot escape from master sin on their own, if it has no bearing in the slave of Philemon reality, and on the reality of many slaves and POWs who have been able to escaped their masters on their own.
It seems disingenuous to bolster one's theological claims using analogies that one has every intention of disclaiming, if someone notices the reality behind the analogies actually contradicts his claims.
Amazing, so the fallen man is given a new heart, but he still is a fallen man, so now in this fallen state with a new heart he can respond to the Gospel and since he responds he is regenerated.
So the fallen man with a new heart is still a fallen man until he is regenerated, correct?
That works well because then you can make the above statement.
This seems a little different that what you have stated in the past, seems to me you had stated the new heart had to precede regeneration?
You read what he wrote. It does not reflect what I believe. He knows it isn't what I believe, and yet he has no problem saying it is what I believe. That is simply bearing false witness.
If you want to have an honest discussion, I'll answer your questions. But don't bias the questions by using Calvinist terminology. You say you don't believe in Calvinism or TULIP. Fair enough. I'm sure you believe you came to your beliefs by an individual assessment of the Bible. I have done the same. So rather than frame doctrine in terms that the Bible doesn't employ and you don't acknowledge as true, ask questions using biblical terms that you acknowledge as biblical and true.