There will be no Rapture!!!

[FollowerofShiloh]

And you say that on what basis? I can't think of any scripture that implies we will meet in the air then return to earth. Jesus said he would take us to where He is and at the time He said that He was going to heaven. Why would He say He's coming to take us to where He is if we would meet in the air and return to where we are? makes no sense to me.

The return to Earth would be for Armageddon.

 

[sawdust]

The return to Earth would be for Armageddon.

Now I'm even more confused.

I haven't followed this thread to a large extent so you may have stated your understanding but ... ?

When do you see the Second Coming in relation to Armageddon?
And when do you see the Resurrection of the Church (Rapture) in relation to the Second Coming?

 

[Musicmaster]

2 Peter 3:4-7
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation to this day as we are beheaded, tortured, murdered, killed in wars and with pestilence and famines.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store into this tribulation period where the Lord will leave His Church to suffer His wrath, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men and the Church.

Does your translation say these things above and below?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who survive the wrath of the Lamb poured out upon His Church, the Jews and the unbelieving world of men, all who remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep since the majority of you will be dead anyway in those days of tribulation.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive, whether we be beaten to within an inch of our lives, bruised, diseased, starving, dying of thirst, enemies of the state because of our refusal to take the mark or worship his image, and even all those near death's door, and those of the Church who are laying upon the guillotines, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words those of you of the Church with the Marine mentality and the Marine will to survive as best you can in your own power.

Isn't it fun adding to the word of Yah whatsoever fits one's narrative?

Oh, wait...

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Not appointed unto "wrath", which in this verse means, " Unto wrath, i. e. to undergo punishment in misery, 1 Thessalonians 5:9. " [Thayer's Greek Lexicon]

That's not fair! The Greek word translated "salvation" in this verse doesn't mean what it seems to mean to the ignorant. It actually means "The sum of benefits and blessings which Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy, Romans 13:11; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Hebrews 9:28; deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation, deliverance from the molestation of enemies." [Thayer's Greek Lexicon]

Hmm. That tends to cast a monkey wrench into the spokes of the fun for eisegesis...

MM

 

[Genez]

Why are we arguing for the Rapture when most believers have no problem with what it says?

God is not butterfly hunting when it says we will all be caught up in the clouds.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Many pre-tribbers claim Rapture happens before the rebuilding of the 3rd Temple.

Time shall tell very soon.

Netanyahu is leading the way over this Hamas War:
8 days ago — We'll examine where the Jewish Temples stood and what this means for the Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, Israel.

 

[Genez]

Many pre-tribbers claim Rapture happens before the rebuilding of the 3rd Temple.

Time shall tell very soon.

Netanyahu is leading the way over this Hamas War:
8 days ago — We'll examine where the Jewish Temples stood and what this means for the Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, Israel.

Bible does not teach when it will be rebuilt. Where does it say when its will be reconstructed?

As far as I can read, it only says it must be standing during the seven year Tribulation...


Also, it is believed that the Temple has been for some time in the process of being prefabbed by religious Jews.

Israel’s Priests Prepare for the Third Temple

https://free.messianicbible.com/feature/israels-priests-prepare-third-temple/

grace and peace ...........

 

[Musicmaster]

Many pre-tribbers claim Rapture happens before the rebuilding of the 3rd Temple.

Time shall tell very soon.

Netanyahu is leading the way over this Hamas War:
8 days ago — We'll examine where the Jewish Temples stood and what this means for the Third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem, Israel.

What's sad is how many of our Jewish brethren, both Orthodox and Messianic, will flock to that place to participate, almost like a spectator sport, the sacrifices, lending their hearts to it as if the coming sacrifices have any positive meaning in relation to the "slap in the face" it will be to the sufficiency of the Blood of Yahshuah.

As to WHEN that temple or tabernacle will be built, I have no idea. All I know is that there will be a "holy place" the man of sin will desecrate.

The pre-wrath and post-trib views have made it much easier to lead many into the doctrine from the pits of Hell known as "replacement theology." Those eschatological views are the dominant views held by those who have adopted "replacement theology" mentality as their understanding of the current status of Israel.

So, either before or after, the building of the temple doesn't have to coincide with the revealing of the man of sin signing the treaty, because if the REAL temple sight is actually in the City of David where they have found what they think was the temple of Melchizedek, then things may indeed get more interesting, which I'm sure we can all agree.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Bible does not teach when it will be rebuilt. Where does it say when its will be reconstructed?

As far as I can read, it only says it must be standing during the seven year Tribulation...


Also, it is believed that the Temple has been for some time in the process of being prefabbed by religious Jews.

Israel’s Priests Prepare for the Third Temple

https://free.messianicbible.com/feature/israels-priests-prepare-third-temple/

grace and peace ...........

It's just a recent article. And I am going by some of the many things I've heard in relationship to the pre-trib Rapture and the 3rd Temple.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What's sad is how many of our Jewish brethren, both Orthodox and Messianic, will flock to that place to participate, almost like a spectator sport, the sacrifices, lending their hearts to it as if the coming sacrifices have any positive meaning in relation to the "slap in the face" it will be to the sufficiency of the Blood of Yahshuah.

As to WHEN that temple or tabernacle will be built, I have no idea. All I know is that there will be a "holy place" the man of sin will desecrate.

The pre-wrath and post-trib views have made it much easier to lead many into the doctrine from the pits of Hell known as "replacement theology." Those eschatological views are the dominant views held by those who have adopted "replacement theology" mentality as their understanding of the current status of Israel.

So, either before or after, the building of the temple doesn't have to coincide with the revealing of the man of sin signing the treaty, because if the REAL temple sight is actually in the City of David where they have found what they think was the temple of Melchizedek, then things may indeed get more interesting, which I'm sure we can all agree.

MM

Yes, many Jews will be and are deceived based solely upon this coming Temple.

 

[Genez]

Yes, many Jews will be and are deceived based solely upon this coming Temple.

Deceived people being utilized in God's plan can be a good thing.

For, if men were not deceived 2000 years ago?

Our sins would not be paid for today!

"None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, ​

they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." 1 Cor 2:8​

God works all things for the good! Rom 8:28

Men are being deceived throughout history, and can ultimately be turned into a good thing!

In other words?
Satan can do nothing to thwart God's desire and plan.

Get Jesus crucified?

And, Satan? It will turn around and bite you on the butt!

grace and peace !

 

[Musicmaster]

Modern thinking is interesting, is it not? We're told by Paul to "comfort" one another with the deliverance, but only after horrid death all around. Be comforted... Some belief systems render Paul's instructions as having originated either a lunatic or a liar, or the Lord is really angry with the Church.

Which is it; to those of you who believe you'll be here during the horrid tribulation? Was Paul a lunatic, a liar or has the Church betrayed the Lord as did Israel, and therefore the wrath upon both? If the Church is going to be here through half or most or all of it, then the Lord must, in the thinking of those who believe along those lines, be angry with the Church as well, which places the Church on the same level of betrayal as the rejection of Israel.

Let's hear it, from those who may deem themselves brave enough to be honest.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Modern thinking is interesting, is it not? We're told by Paul to "comfort" one another with the deliverance, but only after horrid death all around. Be comforted... Some belief systems render Paul's instructions as having originated either a lunatic or a liar, or the Lord is really angry with the Church.

Which is it; to those of you who believe you'll be here during the horrid tribulation? Was Paul a lunatic, a liar or has the Church betrayed the Lord as did Israel, and therefore the wrath upon both? If the Church is going to be here through half or most or all of it, then the Lord must, in the thinking of those who believe along those lines, be angry with the Church as well, which places the Church on the same level of betrayal as the rejection of Israel.

Let's hear it, from those who may deem themselves brave enough to be honest.

MM

Paul is clearly answering this issue at hand at that time:
4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest who have no hope.

 

[Musicmaster]

Paul is clearly answering this issue at hand at that time:
4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest who have no hope.

That is not an answer to my question. My question went far beyond the scope of what led up to Paul's words in relation to the false belief about the dead.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That is not an answer to my question. My question went far beyond the scope of what led up to Paul's words in relation to the false belief about the dead.

MM

Well he took the time to write down the issue + the answer so how can it mean anything else?

 

[Musicmaster]

Well he took the time to write down the issue + the answer so how can it mean anything else?

I specifically asked about the belief some harbor about them still being here during the tribulation, and contrasting that belief with what Paul said. They seem to think that the Church will be here during the wrath poured out upon the world during the tribulation, and yet in all that, we should "comfort" one another with the promise of deliverance FROM IN THE MIDST of it. Those are the words of a lunatic, or a liar, or the Lord really is angry with the Church if indeed the Church were going to be here during the day of the Lord, the tribulation. I want to hear from them why they believe as they do.

THAT is the question at hand, not what the Thessalonians were told that is contrary to the comfort found only in the deliverance FORM that wrath.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Isaiah 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts [shall be] upon every [one that is] proud and lofty, and upon every [one that is] lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

Isaiah 13:6, 9
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. ...
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Jeremiah 46:10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.

Ezekiel 30:3 For the day [is] near, even the day of the LORD [is] near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.

Joel 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD [is] at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2:1, 11, 31
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand; ...
11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp [is] very great: for [he is] strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; and who can abide it? ...
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Amos 5:18, 20
18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light. ...
20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Obadiah 1:15 For the day of the LORD [is] near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD [is] near, [it is] near, and hasteth greatly, [even] the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

There's no measure of comfort in any of that, which is what was bothering the Thessalonians who were told that the day of the Lord had already begun. Some, for very strange reasons I can't figure out, seem to think that the deliverance of the Church is somewhere in the midst of all that horror, and that there could ever be an inkling for measure of "comfort" to be found in encouragements for passing through that horror only to be delivered at some unknown point in it all...IF they survive one out of every two on the earth dying in that time?

So, either Paul was a lunatic or a liar! How does one justify any of that being something within which can be found "comfort"?

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I specifically asked about the belief some harbor about them still being here during the tribulation, and contrasting that belief with what Paul said. They seem to think that the Church will be here during the wrath poured out upon the world during the tribulation, and yet in all that, we should "comfort" one another with the promise of deliverance FROM IN THE MIDST of it. Those are the words of a lunatic, or a liar, or the Lord really is angry with the Church if indeed the Church were going to be here during the day of the Lord, the tribulation. I want to hear from them why they believe as they do.

THAT is the question at hand, not what the Thessalonians were told that is contrary to the comfort found only in the deliverance FORM that wrath.

MM

The Witnesses will be dishing out all sorts of punishment and they cannot be harmed in any sort of way until midway. Then it says for the 3 days they are dead 10 Those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them.

So the Witnesses will be kicking the whole worlds butt.

Why would the Church be hurt when the Witnesses are the ones dishing out the Wrath?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Notice the whole world is getting their butts kicked so it can't be just 2 people as witnesses. It's as I explained to effect the whole world.

 

[Musicmaster]

The Witnesses will be dishing out all sorts of punishment and they cannot be harmed in any sort of way until midway. Then it says for the 3 days they are dead 10 Those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them.

So the Witnesses will be kicking the whole worlds butt.

Why would the Church be hurt when the Witnesses are the ones dishing out the Wrath?

You really are selective in your responses, and in taking in the entire panorama of the day of the Lord. It is the Hand of Yahshuah who is opening those seals, releasing the horsemen, which bring the horrid calamities upon the world through the power emanating from the Lord. Those horsemen are not the witnesses, nor is there any mention for them being tied to the witnesses, nor are the trumpets tied to the witnesses. It is said that the witnesses can and do stop the rains from happening in accordance with their own will, but the rest of it all, it is directly from the Hand of the Lord and under the direction of Him directly.

So, can you answer the question or not? Where is there any comfort in any of that?

Anyone else?

MM

 

[Genez]

Paul is clearly answering this issue at hand at that time:
4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest who have no hope.

Dear Follower of Shallow.....

Enjoy your own tribulation.

The First Church of the Masochist will be holding its first summer school service on Wednesday at 8 PM..