Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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Open Text > Insert Theology.
I'll do it anyway, once again:
1Cor2:14 is not about believing the basic concepts of the Gospel. Loose that premise and meditate on it. Just try it out.
I've shown you why I see "spiritual" in this part of Scripture to be more specialized than just meaning being in Christ - more than just being a believer. Here's more reason for this from this same document:
Now, irrespective of what I posited before from Scripture, you assert your theological presuppositions again and add this:
So, you assert once again that believer = spiritual.
Not only does this ignore or simply disagree (apart from much if any explanation) with what I've previously posited from Scripture, but it also disagrees with what I just pointed out above re: the difference between a spiritual and an ignorant Christian.
In Paul's thinking I see at least 2 types of Christians - believers with the Spirit - described 2 ways:
So, looking at 1Cor3:1 again in this light: All you and I are doing is looking at the basic premise we have to see if it is presuppositional error or correct. I already see you as being wrong as I just pointed out. But here we go once more. BTW, IMView this does not resolve everything about the Natural Man and Spiritual Death, but maybe it's a decent start:
- We haven't even discussed the Text in context and your beginning is to insert the following presuppositions:
- the natural man is:
- Dead (without defining dead)
- God-hating
- Unable to understand [any] spiritual truth
- No Spirit = no spiritual discernment (though you've previously stated he does have some)
- The unregenerate first becomes a newborn babe in Christ, then:
- Believes the Gospel
- Repents
- Can do far more than the natural man can do,
- the natural man is:
I'll do it anyway, once again:
1Cor2:14 is not about believing the basic concepts of the Gospel. Loose that premise and meditate on it. Just try it out.
- This is the primary difference between the different doctrinal views.
- #1 TULIP: Natural Man > Gospel proclaimed > Gospel not (can't be) heard >
- No Gospel belief
- No Gospel rejection
- No nothing - just dead
- #1 TULIP Solution: Infant in Christ > Gospel heard > Gospel believed > Infant in Christ
- No Gospel rejection (can't reject)
- #2 NON-TULIP: Natural Man > Gospel proclaimed > Gospel heard
- Gospel believed > Infant in Christ
- Gospel rejected > remain Natural Man
- #1 TULIP: Natural Man > Gospel proclaimed > Gospel not (can't be) heard >
- IF 1Cor2:14 in context is not speaking about believing the basics of the Gospel, but about deeper things only mature believers can understand
- Then all it's saying is the natural man cannot understand these deeper things -
- It thus means we take the discussion of belief in the basics of the Gospel to other places in Scripture and part of TD is not found here.
- Then all it's saying is the natural man cannot understand these deeper things -
I've shown you why I see "spiritual" in this part of Scripture to be more specialized than just meaning being in Christ - more than just being a believer. Here's more reason for this from this same document:
- NKJ 1Cor14:37-38 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
- So, Paul is contrasting the spiritual Christian with the ignorant Christian.
- So Paul sees 2 types of Christians - spiritual and ignorant
- More in 1Cor re: ignorance:
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware ignorant (same word) that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
- Paul doesn't want Christians to be ignorant, so he teaches them (so they can become spiritual per 1Cor10:37-38, and so they can be mature and he can teach them the deep things of God per 1Cor2).
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
- Again, Paul doesn't want Christians to be ignorant, so he teaches them (so they can become spiritual per 1Cor10:37-38, and so they can be mature and he can teach them the deep things of God per 1Cor2).
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware ignorant (same word) that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
- So, Paul is contrasting the spiritual Christian with the ignorant Christian.
- There is a difference in Paul between a spiritual Christian and an ignorant Christian - an ignorant Christian needs more teaching in order to become a spiritual Christian (shown above)
- There is a difference in Paul between a spiritual = mature Christian and a babe/infant in Christ (1Cor2-3)
Now, irrespective of what I posited before from Scripture, you assert your theological presuppositions again and add this:
So, you assert once again that believer = spiritual.
Not only does this ignore or simply disagree (apart from much if any explanation) with what I've previously posited from Scripture, but it also disagrees with what I just pointed out above re: the difference between a spiritual and an ignorant Christian.
In Paul's thinking I see at least 2 types of Christians - believers with the Spirit - described 2 ways:
- spiritual and ignorant
- spiritual and infant
So, looking at 1Cor3:1 again in this light: All you and I are doing is looking at the basic premise we have to see if it is presuppositional error or correct. I already see you as being wrong as I just pointed out. But here we go once more. BTW, IMView this does not resolve everything about the Natural Man and Spiritual Death, but maybe it's a decent start:
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes/infants in Christ.
- In context Paul says he is speaking to mature Christians about the wisdom [from God] re: this new era - the deep things of God - the things God has prepared for those who love Him, etc. per 1Cor2:6, et.al - things well beyond the basic Gospel
- Paul is speaking to Christians (brethren).
- Paul says he cannot speak to these Christian brethren as spiritual - but as fleshly / infants in Christ- So:
- Is Paul saying they are Christian brethren (spiritual) but he can't talk to them as Christian brethren (spiritual)?
- So he has to talk to them as infants in Christ?
- So infants in Christ are not Christians (spiritual)?
- So he has to talk to them as infants in Christ?
- Or is Paul saying he cannot speak to infant Christian brethren in Christ with the Spirit as mature Christians with the Spirit - i.e. as Spiritual Christians?
- Therefore:
- Paul has to speak to infant Christians with [spiritual] milk (1Cor3:2)
- Insert your 1Peter2:2-3 verses: 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in/into your salvation (maturity - being Spiritual) 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good (they're in Christ and need milk).
- Peter: New born baby Christians need spiritual milk to grow by
- Paul: Infant Christians need [spiritual] milk to become mature/spiritual
- Different ways of saying the same thing.
- Milk explained: Insert NKJ Heb5 speaking to Christians re: [spiritual] milk:
- 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
- The first principles of the oracles from God = milk
- 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe/infant (same word Paul uses).
- Infant Christians need milk = The first principles of the oracles from God
- Infant Christians are unlearned/unskilled in the word of righteousness
- 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age/mature (same word Paul uses), that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
- So like Paul - the contrast between the infant and the mature Christians
- NKJ Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection (maturity - same as in 5:14 and in Paul), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
- Milk is further explains as the elementary principles of Christ - the foundation:
- Repentance from dead works
- Faith toward God
- Doctrine of baptisms
- Doctrine of laying on of hands
- Doctrine of Resurrection from the dead
- Doctrine of eternal judgment
- Milk is further explains as the elementary principles of Christ - the foundation:
- 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
- Insert your 1Peter2:2-3 verses: 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in/into your salvation (maturity - being Spiritual) 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good (they're in Christ and need milk).
- Paul has to speak to infant Christians with [spiritual] milk (1Cor3:2)
- Therefore:
- Is Paul saying they are Christian brethren (spiritual) but he can't talk to them as Christian brethren (spiritual)?
@Rufus cont'd
IMO so do most Christians who are locked in battle about how one becomes a Christian. When the Text says God desire all men to be saved, do we think He's say His goal is for all men to become Christian infants, or is He looking through and past this to the goal for which He put our Lord on the cross?
Again, as I read the Text your equating "spiritual" simply to being a believer, although understandable, is not al at all what Paul is saying in 1Cor2.
Convince me I'm wrong.
- Again, this is not about Natural Man vs. Christians with the Spirit
- This is about:
- Mature Christians with the Spirit - the Spiritual [Men]
- Who can be fed the meat of the Word of God - advanced Christian doctrines - some of which are listed in 1Cor2
- Infant Christians with the Spirit - babes in Christ - Newborn babies
- Who must be fed the Milk of the Word of God - the first principle of God's Oracles - the listed elementary Principles of Christ - Christianity 101 for newborn Christians - so they can grow up in salvation and move on to advanced doctrines and Christian Maturity/being Spiritual [Men]
- Natural Man:
- Who cannot be fed the meat or milk of the Word of God - the elementary and advance doctrines of the Christian Faith
- Mature Christians with the Spirit - the Spiritual [Men]
- This is the goal
- This is the comparison being made
- Most want to look at the importance of entrance into Christ, but this is not the true and complete goal of the cross of Christ.
- The true and complete goal of the cross of Christ is mature Christian sons of God - Spiritual Men in Christ in Spirit
- If you look at Paul, Peter, and Hebrews again as indicated above, you'll find that none of them in this context speak highly of Christian infants:
- Hebrews rebukes them for being lazy and dull of hearing.
- Paul criticizes them saying they are fleshly and not spiritual (still being ruled too much by the flesh and not the Spirit)
- Peter is the gentlest and simply commands the babies to drink their milk so they can grow up.
- The Natural Man cannot understand how to become a Mature Son of God - a Spiritual Man
- This is the goal for all men
- This says nothing about Natural Man not being able to believe the basic Gospel.
IMO so do most Christians who are locked in battle about how one becomes a Christian. When the Text says God desire all men to be saved, do we think He's say His goal is for all men to become Christian infants, or is He looking through and past this to the goal for which He put our Lord on the cross?
Again, as I read the Text your equating "spiritual" simply to being a believer, although understandable, is not al at all what Paul is saying in 1Cor2.
Convince me I'm wrong.
Thank you kindly. To be honest, I believe election and free will are both true. Why? Because both are taught in the Bible. If you’ll notice in Ephesians, ch. 1:4-12, Paul, a chosen vessel, has been talking about election. …but then in verse 13, Paul is now addressing those who trusted "after they heard the word of truth":
Ephesians 1:4-20
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
So here we see that after they believed, trusted and accepted Christ as their Savior, they were also sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (inheritance).Ephesians 1:4-20
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
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1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and
death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned.
John 12:40 speaking to one of the other thread issues~
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with
their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your
sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.
Deuteronomy 30:6~
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and
death through sin, in this way death spread to all men, because all sinned.
John 12:40 speaking to one of the other thread issues~
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with
their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Colossians 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of your
sinful nature, with the circumcision performed by Christ and not by human hands.
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him
with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
Maybe PT can inform us how souls can die...then again, maybe not.
Thanks for the coffee. When I was out for coffee earlier, *I was on my phone and mentioned that
I could not post any Scriptures on death, which I hope I have sufficiently made up for now .
Not that I would expect PT to acknowledge any of *that even though I specifically told him.
In fact, he blatantly ignored being informed.
I take it this is the KJV rendering? I wouldn't put too much credence in the term "after" in that version. Other versions read differently -- even the two contrasting types, i.e. Formal and Dynamic Equivalency . Notice verses 13 and 15, especially. The NIV which is of the latter type that is designed to capture thought for thought reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
NIV
Then the Darby, which is of the former type (very literal) reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 in whom ye also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is [the] earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to [the] praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which [is] in you, and the love which [ye have] towards all the saints,
Darby
The AMP also tries to capture the sense and nuances of a passage and it reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
14 That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it — to the praise of His glory.
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (the people of God),
AMP
And the ESV is a very popular and modern literal translation. It reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints
ESV
I think all of the above renderings are better than the KJV's for the simple reason they are consistent with other passages that teach that faith and and eternal life occur simultaneously:
John 6:47
47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
NIV
This is why it's so very important that we avail ourselves to as many translations that we can AND compare scripture with scripture.
Eph 1:13-15
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.
15 For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints,
NIV
Then the Darby, which is of the former type (very literal) reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 in whom ye also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is [the] earnest of our inheritance to the redemption of the acquired possession to [the] praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which [is] in you, and the love which [ye have] towards all the saints,
Darby
The AMP also tries to capture the sense and nuances of a passage and it reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.
14 That [Spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it — to the praise of His glory.
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (the people of God),
AMP
And the ESV is a very popular and modern literal translation. It reads:
Eph 1:13-15
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
15 For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints
ESV
I think all of the above renderings are better than the KJV's for the simple reason they are consistent with other passages that teach that faith and and eternal life occur simultaneously:
John 6:47
47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.
NIV
This is why it's so very important that we avail ourselves to as many translations that we can AND compare scripture with scripture.
Some are simply untrustworthy witnesses.
Thanks for the coffee. When I was out for coffee earlier, *I was on my phone and mentioned that
I could not post any Scriptures on death, which I hope I have sufficiently made up for now .
Not that I would expect PT to acknowledge any of *that even though I specifically told him.
In fact, he blatantly ignored being informed.
Thanks for the coffee. When I was out for coffee earlier, *I was on my phone and mentioned that
I could not post any Scriptures on death, which I hope I have sufficiently made up for now .
Not that I would expect PT to acknowledge any of *that even though I specifically told him.
In fact, he blatantly ignored being informed.
Another interesting text that comes to mind regarding spiritual death is this one:
Luke 12:4-6
4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him .
NIV
In other words, fear him who can not only kill the body but the soul, as well.
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Coffee is one of my weaknesses of the flesh. It'll probably kill me. But if it doesn't something else will.
Another interesting text that comes to mind regarding spiritual death is this one:
Luke 12:4-6
4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him .
NIV
In other words, fear him who can not only kill the body but the soul, as well.
Another interesting text that comes to mind regarding spiritual death is this one:
Luke 12:4-6
4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him .
NIV
In other words, fear him who can not only kill the body but the soul, as well.
...or here it is again:
Our God is a Consuming Fire
Somebody once complained that the panel was not Scriptural, but every line
comes from a Scripture verse, so I do not know what they were talking about.
Open Text > Insert Theology.
I'll do it anyway, once again:
1Cor2:14 is not about believing the basic concepts of the Gospel. Loose that premise and meditate on it. Just try it out.
I've shown you why I see "spiritual" in this part of Scripture to be more specialized than just meaning being in Christ - more than just being a believer. Here's more reason for this from this same document:
Now, irrespective of what I posited before from Scripture, you assert your theological presuppositions again and add this:
So, you assert once again that believer = spiritual.
Not only does this ignore or simply disagree (apart from much if any explanation) with what I've previously posited from Scripture, but it also disagrees with what I just pointed out above re: the difference between a spiritual and an ignorant Christian.
In Paul's thinking I see at least 2 types of Christians - believers with the Spirit - described 2 ways:
So, looking at 1Cor3:1 again in this light: All you and I are doing is looking at the basic premise we have to see if it is presuppositional error or correct. I already see you as being wrong as I just pointed out. But here we go once more. BTW, IMView this does not resolve everything about the Natural Man and Spiritual Death, but maybe it's a decent start:
- We haven't even discussed the Text in context and your beginning is to insert the following presuppositions:
- the natural man is:
- Dead (without defining dead)
- God-hating
- Unable to understand [any] spiritual truth
- No Spirit = no spiritual discernment (though you've previously stated he does have some)
- The unregenerate first becomes a newborn babe in Christ, then:
- Believes the Gospel
- Repents
- Can do far more than the natural man can do,
- the natural man is:
I'll do it anyway, once again:
1Cor2:14 is not about believing the basic concepts of the Gospel. Loose that premise and meditate on it. Just try it out.
- This is the primary difference between the different doctrinal views.
- #1 TULIP: Natural Man > Gospel proclaimed > Gospel not (can't be) heard >
- No Gospel belief
- No Gospel rejection
- No nothing - just dead
- #1 TULIP Solution: Infant in Christ > Gospel heard > Gospel believed > Infant in Christ
- No Gospel rejection (can't reject)
- #2 NON-TULIP: Natural Man > Gospel proclaimed > Gospel heard
- Gospel believed > Infant in Christ
- Gospel rejected > remain Natural Man
- #1 TULIP: Natural Man > Gospel proclaimed > Gospel not (can't be) heard >
- IF 1Cor2:14 in context is not speaking about believing the basics of the Gospel, but about deeper things only mature believers can understand
- Then all it's saying is the natural man cannot understand these deeper things -
- It thus means we take the discussion of belief in the basics of the Gospel to other places in Scripture and part of TD is not found here.
- Then all it's saying is the natural man cannot understand these deeper things -
I've shown you why I see "spiritual" in this part of Scripture to be more specialized than just meaning being in Christ - more than just being a believer. Here's more reason for this from this same document:
- NKJ 1Cor14:37-38 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant.
- So, Paul is contrasting the spiritual Christian with the ignorant Christian.
- So Paul sees 2 types of Christians - spiritual and ignorant
- More in 1Cor re: ignorance:
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware ignorant (same word) that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
- Paul doesn't want Christians to be ignorant, so he teaches them (so they can become spiritual per 1Cor10:37-38, and so they can be mature and he can teach them the deep things of God per 1Cor2).
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:
- Again, Paul doesn't want Christians to be ignorant, so he teaches them (so they can become spiritual per 1Cor10:37-38, and so they can be mature and he can teach them the deep things of God per 1Cor2).
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware ignorant (same word) that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
- So, Paul is contrasting the spiritual Christian with the ignorant Christian.
- There is a difference in Paul between a spiritual Christian and an ignorant Christian - an ignorant Christian needs more teaching in order to become a spiritual Christian (shown above)
- There is a difference in Paul between a spiritual = mature Christian and a babe/infant in Christ (1Cor2-3)
Now, irrespective of what I posited before from Scripture, you assert your theological presuppositions again and add this:
So, you assert once again that believer = spiritual.
Not only does this ignore or simply disagree (apart from much if any explanation) with what I've previously posited from Scripture, but it also disagrees with what I just pointed out above re: the difference between a spiritual and an ignorant Christian.
In Paul's thinking I see at least 2 types of Christians - believers with the Spirit - described 2 ways:
- spiritual and ignorant
- spiritual and infant
So, looking at 1Cor3:1 again in this light: All you and I are doing is looking at the basic premise we have to see if it is presuppositional error or correct. I already see you as being wrong as I just pointed out. But here we go once more. BTW, IMView this does not resolve everything about the Natural Man and Spiritual Death, but maybe it's a decent start:
- NKJ 1 Corinthians 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes/infants in Christ.
- In context Paul says he is speaking to mature Christians about the wisdom [from God] re: this new era - the deep things of God - the things God has prepared for those who love Him, etc. per 1Cor2:6, et.al - things well beyond the basic Gospel
- Paul is speaking to Christians (brethren).
- Paul says he cannot speak to these Christian brethren as spiritual - but as fleshly / infants in Christ- So:
- Is Paul saying they are Christian brethren (spiritual) but he can't talk to them as Christian brethren (spiritual)?
- So he has to talk to them as infants in Christ?
- So infants in Christ are not Christians (spiritual)?
- So he has to talk to them as infants in Christ?
- Or is Paul saying he cannot speak to infant Christian brethren in Christ with the Spirit as mature Christians with the Spirit - i.e. as Spiritual Christians?
- Therefore:
- Paul has to speak to infant Christians with [spiritual] milk (1Cor3:2)
- Insert your 1Peter2:2-3 verses: 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in/into your salvation (maturity - being Spiritual) 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good (they're in Christ and need milk).
- Peter: New born baby Christians need spiritual milk to grow by
- Paul: Infant Christians need [spiritual] milk to become mature/spiritual
- Different ways of saying the same thing.
- Milk explained: Insert NKJ Heb5 speaking to Christians re: [spiritual] milk:
- 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
- The first principles of the oracles from God = milk
- 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe/infant (same word Paul uses).
- Infant Christians need milk = The first principles of the oracles from God
- Infant Christians are unlearned/unskilled in the word of righteousness
- 14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age/mature (same word Paul uses), that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
- So like Paul - the contrast between the infant and the mature Christians
- NKJ Hebrews 6:1-2 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection (maturity - same as in 5:14 and in Paul), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
- Milk is further explains as the elementary principles of Christ - the foundation:
- Repentance from dead works
- Faith toward God
- Doctrine of baptisms
- Doctrine of laying on of hands
- Doctrine of Resurrection from the dead
- Doctrine of eternal judgment
- Milk is further explains as the elementary principles of Christ - the foundation:
- 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
- Insert your 1Peter2:2-3 verses: 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in/into your salvation (maturity - being Spiritual) 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good (they're in Christ and need milk).
- Paul has to speak to infant Christians with [spiritual] milk (1Cor3:2)
- Therefore:
- Is Paul saying they are Christian brethren (spiritual) but he can't talk to them as Christian brethren (spiritual)?
And you make this false dichotomy between the "basic Gospel" ("milk") that the "natural man" can certainly grasp all by his lonesome but the "deeper" spiritual truths, not so much? So, there must be degrees of spiritual death too, no? Some natural folks are more dead than others because they can't or won't grasp the Gospel, while others can but they just can't dig into the "deeper" stuff?
And if Spiritual doesn't = believer, then spiritual must = natural man?
As far as your "proof text" of 1Cor 14:36-37 goes, it reads:
1 Cor 14:36-38
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. 38 If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.
NIV
Have a nice evening...
How do you know I haven’t? I’m pretty solid on my beliefs.
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Yes, part of that verse was one of many verses on my panel in this post (<= link) . ...or here it is again:
Our God is a Consuming Fire
Somebody once complained that the panel was not Scriptural, but every line
comes from a Scripture verse, so I do not know what they were talking about.
...or here it is again:
Our God is a Consuming Fire
Somebody once complained that the panel was not Scriptural, but every line
comes from a Scripture verse, so I do not know what they were talking about.