Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Cameron143 said:
A hearer is one who hears and understands. With understanding, one does. Without understanding, one rejects. We act upon the perception of our understanding. No one does before they think.
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Sure. No one rejects what they understand. Simplistic ideology not accepted.

Open Text. Prove your case with Scripture if you are able. It's pretty easy to find some to discuss.
 
Cameron143 said:
No. Faith is a response to what God says. They looked at the serpent because they believed what God said. Looking wasn't salvation. Looking was evidence they believed what God said.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
Faith believes, and then responds.
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Understanding not necessary to insert here?
 
selahsays said:
You got a scripture for this statement that “God knows how to speak to dead people”? Thx.
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People around here seem to like physical to spiritual analogies:

43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"
44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."
45 Then many of the Jews who had come to Mary, and had seen the things Jesus did, believed in Him. (Jn. 11:43-45 NKJ)
 
studier said:
Ad hominem diversion.
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
Faith responds in obedience.

Since not everyone who hears the gospel physically responds in faith and obedience, hearing must engender more than just physical hearing.
 
Cameron143 said:
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Word of God produces hearing.
Hearing produces faith.
Faith responds in obedience.

Since not everyone who hears the gospel physically responds in faith and obedience, hearing must engender more than just physical hearing.
Click to expand...

Ad hominem apparently repented.

Still diverting.

Where's understanding? All I'm asking you to do is be consistent and explain yourself with Scripture.
 
studier said:
Strange, even aggressive, but not unbiblical if we consider what Paul wished for those pushing a false doctrine of circumcision.
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Can you give an example of rape being used as a Biblical means of God expressing His love for us?
Somehow I think it just goes to show how far beyond what the text says people are willing to go.
And then say it is justified because of x,y, and z, when it is not. Not much different than saying we
were kidnapped against our will when God made us alive. Would you like to call that Biblical as well,
and say too that it means God is an unjust tyrant and the offer of repentance is fraudulent and there
is no such thing as true repentance all because God made us alive while we were dead? Those
ideas have been bandied about and discussed here before also.
 
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studier said:
I agree that TULIP is wrong so it's not my "stupid TULIP".

This has been discussed quite extensively. So, can a [spiritually] dead human being understand that the eternal, powerful, divine God exists? Can a [spiritually] dead human being who understands God exists hear & understand the basic Good News of God's Son?

If you say no, then your understanding is explained in the TULIP doctrine.

I'll wait to see your thoughts are on what the Scripture I just posted and highlighted to see what you think the Text plainly states.
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Perhaps I was mistaken to think it was you who said there are more options available than simply the two
of Arminian or Calvinist, because now you come across as wanting to pound me into some Calvinist cubicle.

According to the Bible, the fool says there is no God.

Do you make no distinction between what can be known via creation and the gospel?

Because the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Gosh. I have said this many times.

Psalm19-1s.png

Psalm 19:1
:)
 
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NKJ Romans 10:14-11:1 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
  • Preach/Proclaim Him > Hear about Him > Believe in Him > Call on Him
  • Scripture is either deficient or leaving things out that we glean elsewhere to properly - according to Scripture - insert into this string for a properly harmonized Biblical Theology
15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!"
  • [God] sends the Preacher/Proclaimer > Preach/Proclaim Him/The Good News of Peace > Hear about Him/The Good News of Peace > Believe in Him/The Good News of Peace > Call on Him
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
  • "report" here is literally "that which is heard"
  • "believed our report" can also legitimately be translated as "had faith in that which is heard"
  • Please note the parallelisms here between;
    • obedience and belief/having faith
    • the gospel and that which is heard
    • Men believe/have faith in / Obey the Gospel
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
  • "So then " = Paul summarizes what he just said - I'm going to translate more literally:
    • The Faith from that which is heard (the Gospel) and that which is heard from a spoken word of/from/about Christ.
      • "The Faith" is pointing back specifically to what Paul has been talking about - belief/faith in / obedience to the Gospel/the thing heard
      • God spoke > From what God spoke [came] the Gospel/the message heard > from the message hard from what God spoke > Faith/Belief
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "Their sound has gone out to all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world."
  • They all heard
  • The Proclaimer's voice/sound went out into all the land - their spoken words into the boundaries of the inhabited world.
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says: "I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation, I will move you to anger by a foolish nation."
  • Moses had informed Israel what would ultimately happen.
  • God held Israel responsible for knowing their Scriptures
  • "a foolish nation" is a nation void of understanding/stupid
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says: "I was found by those who did not seek Me; I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me."
  • That nation without understanding had not sought God but found Him
  • God became visible to that nation that had not asked for Him
21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people."
  • Israel's problem:
    • Disobeying God who stretched out His hands to them all day
      • According to the parallelism above - their disobedience is also no faith
    • Contradicting/Opposing/Refusing God who stretched out His hands to them all day

There are plenty of things here to discuss no matter what theological positions are held.
 
rogerg said:
That is the whole point - they reject because they have not spiritual hearing/discernment to comprehend, receive and accept.
For that, one must have the Spirit; to have the Spirit one must be saved/born again. They hear, but only with the humanistic hearing of natural/unsaved man and with that hearing, the things of the Spirit (all the things of the Spirit) are foolishness.

[1Co 1:2 KJV]
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

[1Co 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
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There's not one [single] scripture that says people have the Holy Spirit before they HEAR, NOT ONE!

There's almost 10 TEN verses that say you hear, then the Holy Spirit works.

You literally preach something that is ""nowhere"" in the Bible.
 
Magenta said:
Can you give an example of rape being used as a Biblical means of God expressing His love for us?
Somehow I think it just goes to show how far beyond what the text says people are willing to go.
And then say it is justified because of x,y, and z, when it is not. Not much different than saying we
were kidnapped against our will when God made us alive. Would you like to call that Biblical as well,
and say too that it means God is an unjust tyrant and the offer of repentance is fraudulent and there
is no such thing as true repentance all because God made us alive while we were dead? Those
ideas have been bandied about and discussed here before also.
Click to expand...


Look up the "straw man" fallacy. Nobody said rape is a Biblical means of God expressing His love for us. Nobody but you equated rape with love.

Kidnapped is a fair assertion of what some see of TULIP - taking people apart from their will.

An offer [of repentance] usually suggests a willing acceptance or rejection.
 
Magenta said:
Perhaps I was mistaken to think it was you who said there are more options available than simply the two
of Arminian or Calvinist, because now you come across as wanting to pound me into some Calvinist cubicle.
Click to expand...

I did say that. I'm not pounding you anywhere. What you're saying is akin to TULIP.
Magenta said:
According to the Bible, the fool says there is no God.

Do you make no distinction between what can be known via creation and the gospel?

Because the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

Gosh. I have said this many times.
Click to expand...

Agree. Are all fools?

I make no distinction between what God makes clear to men for their acceptance or rejection.

And the Gospel is not foolishness to those who are being saved.

I understand repetition can be wearying and I'm likely older and more quickly wearied than you.
 
studier said:
Without reference. Without context.

Then you inserted your opinion of its meaning.
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More scripture...Matthew 13:10-17...it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven...but to them it is not given...
At any rate, you will put some spin on this. There are some people it is just not edifying to chat with. Blessings.
 
Cameron143 said:
A hearer is one who hears and understands. With understanding, one does. Without understanding, one rejects. We act upon the perception of our understanding. No one does before they think.
Click to expand...
It seems like the word desire must be included. In other words, "We act upon the perception of our understanding and desire".
The desire part comes when we receive a new heart. Then we have the desire to obey!
 
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