Saul of Tarsus was not saved on the road to Damascus.

[Beckworth]

I'll have to research this practice a bit.... I know that there were "odd" beliefs here and there, but I've never heard of putting off baptism until just before death...

There is no shortage of man-made traditions in church history... my dad tells of how churches in the 1800's and early 1900's always covered the communion trays with a white cloth... it became standard. When some of the churches stopped covering the trays, people were outraged... that's unscriptural, the trays are supposed to be covered!

This tradition was simply started to keep flies out of the bread and wine/juice.... had nothing to do with anything scriptural, it was simply an answer to a problem.... but it became tradition/scriptural to do it...

I'll have to research this practice a bit.... I know that there were "odd" beliefs here and there, but I've never heard of putting off baptism until just before death...

There is no shortage of man-made traditions in church history... my dad tells of how churches in the 1800's and early 1900's always covered the communion trays with a white cloth... it became standard. When some of the churches stopped covering the trays, people were outraged... that's unscriptural, the trays are supposed to be covered!

This tradition was simply started to keep flies out of the bread and wine/juice.... had nothing to do with anything scriptural, it was simply an answer to a problem.... but it became tradition/scriptural to do it...

Genesis 15:6-7​

And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Then He said to him, ​

"I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it." ​

​

Abraham still has to inherit the land, but because he believed, the LORD accredited him with righteousness before telling him he must do this. and the Spirit speaking through Paul in Romans 4 calls this belief his salvation, long before even circumcision was given to him to do.

therefore the mere fact God has things for Abraham yet to do cannot mean Abraham does not have salvation.

you were incorrect to say you have never read a scripture that teaches this: you have read these scriptures, but you haven't understood that this is what they say.

Abraham is not my example because I live under the law of Christ. Abraham never has. Also, your reasoning is faulty because James 2:21 says that Abraham was justified by WORKS and God gives the example of him offering his son as a sacrifice. God never specifically said that Abraham was justified by Faith in Roman’s 4 but only that he was not justified by “boastful works”. Yes, faith is always a “righteous” thing to do and is certainly necessary to salvation but your mistake is that you want to “ADD” the word “ONLY” to it. And God never says we are saved by “faith only.” In fact., God says we are NOT saved by faith only in James 2:24. When you add the word “only” to any scripture about faith or belief, you change the meaning and are immediately in conflict with other scriptures like James 2.
James even uses the scripture that you give as evidence that Abraham was justified by works. He quotes Romans 4 when he says that Abraham believed and it was accounted to him fior righteousness—exactly what Romans 4 says. So James was aware of what Romans 4 is talking about and yet, he STILL says that Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS. Now, I would be no better off than you if I say “works only.” Because that is not what God says. We are not saved by any one thing “ONLY.” Verse 22 in James 4 says that our “faith” and our “works” work “TOGETHER” to produce salvation. This is where you and I differ. And this is where you and the Bible differ. Because you insist on a “faith only” doctrine, you have neither God nor the Bible to support what you say.
Romans 4 must be interpreted and reconciled with James 2. They are both talking about the same thing.
Also, the kind of works that Abraham was not justified by were “boastful works” ; the same kind stated in Ephesians 2. There are also “WORKS OF GOD” as is evident from John 6:28-29 and those are the kind that justified Abraham. When God told him to offer His son, that was a work of God—not a work of which he could “boast.”. And God is careful to make that distinction. We are saved by the same kind of works; which is why He said we are NOT saved by faith only.

 

[hornetguy]

That whole passage is about the "washing away of sin" through baptism. It talks about Noah, how he and his family were saved, through the washing away of the sins of the world by the flood.... and Peter says that baptism is like that... our sins are washed away in the waters of baptism...we are saved from our sins... and we do that as an appeal to God for a clear conscience...

The act of baptism itself doesn't save us... but it is a part of the process. We have to accept the free gift (is acceptance a 'work' ?) and we signify that acceptance by having our sins washed away in baptism.

Scripture compares it to Jewish circumcision.... being circumcised did not "make" you a Jew, but you were not a Jew without it. It's our acceptance of the covenant... it's certainly not a "work".... it's simply our obedience to God's plan.

Scripture tells us that baptism is also our "death" to the old man.... we are buried in the waters of baptism, and raised to walk in a new life.... just as Jesus was dead, buried, and raised from the dead.

People can argue all they want, but they are not arguing with me, they are arguing against scripture. Cherry picking scriptures that say, if you believe, you are saved.... what they fail to realize is that obedience to God's plan was simply expected. If you believe, you will do what God's plan says to do. If you don't believe you won't. It doesn't mean that believing is all that's required.. it means that if you believe, you'll obey.

 

[Jimbone]

Cornelius and his household were all baptized....

Well I was saved before I was baptized. Are you going to tell me I wasn't saved before being baptized? I don't understand why you take baptism and turn it into a false idol and work that "must be done to be saved". No it's not and I KNOW this 10000% because He showed me by saving me and making me all new BEFORE I went to proclaim it publicly by being baptized. Tell me I wasn't saved before hand. Everyone here saying that baptism is REQUIRED to be saved it just wrong. All the way wrong and they need to stop teaching falsely in His name. It's embarrassing.

 

[Burn1986]

Do you really think God would let someone “die on the way to the baptistery”? Wasn’t it God who said He was not willing that anyone would perish”? 2 Peter 3:9. You must believe that God either doesn’t LOVE us enough to let us live long enough to be baptized or else He isn’t POWERFUL enough to preserve our life until we get there.
This reminds me of the disciples in John 21. They were worried about whether Jesus was going to let John live forever. Jesus’s answer was: If I want John to live forever, what business is that of yours? You just make sure YOU do what I say (and I will take care of John). So, likewise, if Jesus decides to save some IMAGINARY person or send him to hell, that is not MY business. MY business is to obey Christ, follow Him. I know what He has said. He said, those who “believe and are baptized shall be saved. I must believe Him and obey Him. Whatever happens to that IMAGINARY person is up to him but it in no way excuses me or changes what I must do.

No, c’mon. It’s just an example
“It’s just a metaphor dude.”

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Interesting.
1. Whoever ""Believes and Baptized"" = Saved.

2. Whoever does not Believe [no mention of Baptized] = Condemned

So only those who Believe would get Baptized.

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized
41 So those who received his word were baptized


44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ


Seems one first Believes and that includes receiving the Holy Spirit and then one is Water Baptized.

 

[Wansvic]

It doesn't even say they were baptized with water at all. but it does say God baptized them with the Spirit: that Christ baptized them with fire.

I realize there is no direct record of the apostles being water baptized. My point was Peter's words indicate water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin was required of everyone. (Acts 2:38-39) As such, the command would have applied to them as well.

 

[Lamar]

Another deluded person. If you read that passage carefully, that means "saves us from a GUILTY CONSCIENCE" once we are saved by grace through faith.

You mean read between the lines and with thick faith alone regeneration theology filters.

Here is the text:
English Standard Version
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And you think this means "saves us from a GUILTY CONSCIENCE" once we are saved by grace through faith?

If you can believe this from the verbiage used then nothing is safe in the Bible.

And you call others "deluded"?

 

[Lamar]

16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Interesting.
1. Whoever ""Believes and Baptized"" = Saved.

2. Whoever does not Believe [no mention of Baptized] = Condemned

So only those who Believe would get Baptized.

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized
41 So those who received his word were baptized


44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people"
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ


Seems one first Believes and that includes receiving the Holy Spirit and then one is Water Baptized.

WOW!!! Talk about twisting scriptures!!!

If you need to do this to support your theology it may be time to rethink said theology.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

WOW!!! Talk about twisting scriptures!!!

If you need to do this to support your theology it may be time to rethink said theology.

I presented scripture. Where does what I said not align to the scripture given?

 

[Wansvic]

Seems one first Believes and that includes receiving the Holy Spirit and then one is Water Baptized.

Acts 8:12, 17-19, and Acts 19:2, 6 reveal the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes.

 

[Lamar]

Do you really think God would let someone “die on the way to the baptistery”? Wasn’t it God who said He was not willing that anyone would perish”? 2 Peter 3:9. You must believe that God either doesn’t LOVE us enough to let us live long enough to be baptized or else He isn’t POWERFUL enough to preserve our life until we get there.
This reminds me of the disciples in John 21. They were worried about whether Jesus was going to let John live forever. Jesus’s answer was: If I want John to live forever, what business is that of yours? You just make sure YOU do what I say (and I will take care of John). So, likewise, if Jesus decides to save some IMAGINARY person or send him to hell, that is not MY business. MY business is to obey Christ, follow Him. I know what He has said. He said, those who “believe and are baptized shall be saved. I must believe Him and obey Him. Whatever happens to that IMAGINARY person is up to him but it in no way excuses me or changes what I must do.

Somebody on this forum used the "what if"... suppose an alligator attacked someone about to be baptized in a lake while being baptized.

I laughed so hard I shot root beer through my nose. Rather painful.

These attempts are much like the what ifs used by the Sadducees in Matthew 22:27-30.

Many here are doing the same. Trying to negate the Word of God with silly scenarios.

 

[Lamar]

I presented scripture. Where does what I said not align to the scripture given?

You patched verses together without context or even labeling them. That is "twisting scripture".

Watch this:

So Judas threw the money into the Temple. Then he went out from there and hanged himself.

Go and do likewise.

So what does this prove?

 

[Cameron143]

You patched verses together without context or even labeling them. That is "twisting scripture".

Watch this:

So Judas threw the money into the Temple. Then he went out from there and hanged himself.

Go and do likewise.

So what does this prove?

You can't take it with you.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You are describing Faith Alone Regeneration Theology which you are part of, as well as Calvin.

Even a broken clock...

This theology takes scriptural generalities and indefinite statements and labels them as all encompassing affirmations.
They will then use this twisted understanding and attempt to negate or ignore the rest of the Bible.

Why would you have to twist Scripture?

It is you who is inserting these concepts into the scriptures.

Can you not see this?

I'm not adding to Scripture, you are. Ok here we go!

These verses are concerned with how we are saved.

Many verses emphasize salvation by grace through faith without mentioning water baptism:

1. John 1:12
2. John 3:14-18, 36 (whoever)
3. John 5:24
4. John 6:29-40, 47, 69 (whoever, everyone)
5. John 11:25-26 (whoever)
6. John 12:46-50 (whoever)
7. John 16:7-9 (not believe)
8. John 17:20-22
9. John 20:31
10. Acts 2:21,33 (everyone)
11. Acts 10:43-48 (whoever, water baptism follows belief and Holy Spirit’s work of salvation)
12. Acts 13:38-39, 48 (everyone)
13. Acts 15:8-11
14. Acts 16:30-31 (answer to a direct question: What must I do to be saved?)
15. Acts 26:18
16. Romans 1:16 (everyone)
17. Romans 3:20-31 (all who believe)
18. Romans 4:1-11
19. Romans 4:23-25
20. Romans 5:1-21
21. Romans 9:30-33 (whoever)
22. Romans 10:4-13 (everyone, whoever)
23. Galatians 2:15-21, Galatians 3:1-28 (whoever, baptism secondary to faith)
24. Galatians 5:5-6
25. Ephesians 2:8-10
26. Philippians 3:4-14
27. 2 Thessalonians 2:16-17
28. Hebrews 4:2-3
29. 1 Peter 2:6
30. 1 John 1:5-10
31. 1 John 4:15 (God abides in whoever confesses Christ)
32. 1 John 5:1, 10-13 (whoever)

33. Other verses mention belief without water baptism: Luke 7:50; John 2:11, 23; John 4:39, 41; John 7:38-39; John 8:30-32; John 9:35-36; John 10:42; John 11:45, 48; John 12:11, 42-44; John 14:1, 12; John 20:31; Acts 14:23; Acts 20:21; Romans 15:13; Philippians 1:29; Titus 3:8. There nine instances of conversion in the book of Acts without reference to baptism: Acts 3:1-4:4, Acts 5:1-14, Acts 9:32-35, Acts 11:19-24, Acts 13:6-12, Acts 13:42-52, Acts 14:1, Acts 17:10-12, Acts 17:22-34. Did the authors miss the opportunity to mention baptism in these many passages if it is so important?

34. Many of the above verses use the language “whosoever” (King James) or “whoever” or “everyone” who believes. This language is all-encompassing. That is, by the language of the text nothing else is required for salvation except faith. Thus, in addition to not mentioning water baptism, the all-encompassing language of whoever precludes other requirements. SO HERE WE HAVE THE THESIS OF SALVATION BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH DEMONSTRATED IN THE AFFIRMATIVE.

35. Further, many verses specifically preclude works as a way to salvation: Acts 13:39; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:15-17; Ephesians 2:9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5; Philippians 3:8-9 (“everything”), etc. Others say that we cannot boast before God—a similar concept (Romans 3:27; 1 Corinthians 1:29).

36. Baptism in the Bible typically follows one’s saving faith as an act of obedience after being saved. Examples: Acts 2:41 and 10:44-48.

37. We listed numerous passages that say that forgiveness of sins comes with faith. There are also passages that indicate that forgiveness of sins is associated with repentance (without mention of water baptism), for example Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 19:4; Acts 20:21; 2 Corinthians 7:10.

38. Faith and repentance are closely associated. They are like two sides of the same coin. You cannot turn toward Christ without turning away from sin. So the command to non-Christians is to repent and believe. All other commands to obedience in the New Testament, including water baptism, are to people who are already Christians.

Nowhere does the Bible say the words, “cannot be saved without water baptism,” or “an unbaptized believer is not saved.”

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You patched verses together without context or even labeling them. That is "twisting scripture".

Watch this:

So Judas threw the money into the Temple. Then he went out from there and hanged himself.

Go and do likewise.

So what does this prove?

No, I presented the verses that showed actual people getting Saved and said according to what was recorded.
The other verses are just verses with no one actually being saved in the process.
I showed when people were ""literally"" getting saved in the process according to the Holy Spirit Inspired Word of God.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Sorry. God disagrees with you. He said, BAPTISM DOES NOW SAVE US. 1 Peter 3:21. Can’t get any plainer than that!

No it does not. You don't make a gospel out of a couple of verses. I presented a majority of verses that say the following...

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

"A good example of someone who was saved before being baptized is Cornelius and his household in Acts 10. We know that they were saved before being baptized because they had received the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence of salvation (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24). The evidence of their salvation was the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized."

And now you Gentiles have also heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.


""So water baptism only saves the believer in type. The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type....Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer’s inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus. Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith. Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.' Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God," and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

"Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is not the ritual itself that saves, but the fact that we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith, “the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 3:21)."


Baptism is an outward sign of an inward conversion.

 

[hornetguy]

Interesting.
1. Whoever ""Believes and Baptized"" = Saved.

2. Whoever does not Believe [no mention of Baptized] = Condemned

This is because it was understood that if you believe, you will obey God's plan, which includes baptism.
If you don't believe, of course you won't follow God's plan, no need to mention that you would not be baptized... it is understood.

Seems one first Believes and that includes receiving the Holy Spirit and then one is Water Baptized.

I agree, one must first believe..... Peter tells us that once you believe, you should be baptized, and you will receive the gift of the Spirit.... that's scripture.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Acts 8:12, 17-19, and Acts 19:2, 6 reveal the Holy Ghost is not automatically received when a person believes.

Lamar thumbs up your post but your post shows same as mine people actually and literally in the process of being saved.
He clearly has no idea what he's running his mouth about.

 

[hornetguy]

You can't take it with you.

You go first..... I'll follow.....

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

This is because it was understood that if you believe, you will obey God's plan, which includes baptism.
If you don't believe, of course you won't follow God's plan, no need to mention that you would not be baptized... it is understood.


I agree, one must first believe..... Peter tells us that once you believe, you should be baptized, and you will receive the gift of the Spirit.... that's scripture.

Amen!