There will be no Rapture!!!

[Genez]

Heavens can refer to the sky and the earth’s atmosphere, making it the “first heaven” (Deuteronomy 11:11; Psalm 104:12; Isaiah 55:10). It can also refer to outer space, where the stars and planets are—the “second heaven” (Psalm 8:3; Isaiah 13:10). And it can refer to God’s dwelling place, which is beyond the other “heavens,” a place known as the “third heaven” (Psalm 33:13–14; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 6:9; Hebrews 7:26; Revelation 11:19). When Paul says that he went to the third heaven, he means that he went to the place where God dwells.

I take it that Satan was ejected from the "third heaven", where God's throne resides.
But I would not want to be dogmatic about this. For me, it makes little difference one way or another.

When Satan (who Isaiah said was the light bearing angel that heralded in the mornings in the prehistoric world) was thrown to earth? WHHHAMMM! BAMMMMMMM! Dinosaurs extinct!

Scientists created a theory that the prehistoric world was hit by a giant asteroid that made dinosaurs extinct.

It was Satan with all his light bearing power that smashed into the earth!
https://www.newscientist.com/defini...th was,surviving dinosaurs into today's birds).

That was Satan's first judgment that caused a huge number of dinosaurs to die off.

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

Agree!

I think this member makes a good argument against the great vanishing.
@Angela53510 states:


This is where not knowing Koine Greek messes up your theology. In fact:

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα." 1 Thess 4:17

The key issues, are:

1. that heaven is not mentioned in the verse! ἀέρα or "air" is the air around us. Ouranos is heaven, and does not appear in this verse! So, we are not going to heaven with Jesus.

2. "secret" is not found in this verse. There can be no "secret." In fact, elsewhere it says of the Second Coming of Jesus:

"Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen." Rev 1:7

This is the Second Coming talked about in 1 Thess 4:17. Every eye will see him! Nothing secret at all!

3. ἀπάντησιν. This word means "to meet" as your translation correctly says. However, the translation neglects to mention the rest of the meaning. Cleon Roger's Jr & Cleon Rodgers III scholarly book, "The
New Linguistic and Exegetical Key to the Greek New Testament," (which we used in Baptist seminary), gives the complete definition. It refers to the return of a conquering hero. The people go out to meet the victor and accompany him back to their city. This word is found only in 3 places on the NT. In Acts 28:15, it refers to the people going out "to meet" Paul, and then return with him to the Rome.

In 1 Thess 4:17, it refers to Christians meeting Jesus in the air around us, and then returning to earth for Judgement Day. Heaven is not where we go, apantesin means the people "meet and return" to earth with Jesus. Paul used that word on purpose, just as Luke did in Acts 28:15.

4. Finally this supposed rapture! Only one Bible contains a transliteration of "harpazo" into rapture and that is Jerome's Latin Bible, translated in the 4th century AD. So 400 years after Christ, and Jerome did not know Koine Greek well, as it was starting to die out. Harpazo means "to snatch, grab!" This refers to the suddenness of the Second Coming! Jerome transliterated, not translated harpazo to sound like a similar Latin word. That being rapiere, which means "abduct" according to one source. Will Jesus abduct us? Not likely. But he will suddenly grab us, so we can meet him in the air.

Further, hermeneutics or Bible interpretation requires we do not make a major doctrine out of one verse in the Bible. There must be many references, for anything to become a pivotal doctrine, which rapture does not have. In fact, the word "Rapture" does not appear in the Bible at all, but the Second Coming does!

1 Thess 4:17 is a reference to Jesus Christ's Second Coming! We are waiting for Jesus to return, not a nonsensical "secret rapture to heaven." Not one of those words is present in 1 Thess 4:17, in Koine Greek or English!

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

 

[Musicmaster]

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

That they made movies doesn't prove anything against any part of that not being the truth for the future. Any of us Israelites living in Jerusalem and the surrounding region who flee into the mountains will be cared for by Yah for the last half of the tribulation. All others will be at the mercy of the wrath of the Lamb and the ensuing persecutions. There is not one promise made that the Gentile believers will be protected, contrary to the claims of some.

MM

 

[Genez]

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

They were good messages in those movies....... Bible truth.

But, hated by those who wish truth were fiction.


So?

All of a sudden God begins using Jews once again on earth again to do his work?

Hmmmmm..... no problem. Just need the right way to spin to deny it.

144,000 Jews!

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."
Revelation. 7:4​

Go ahead and deny that.
You will. (try to)

No one will have their free will over ridden by God.
Proof is seen in how men are free to deny even the most obvious.

Grace to those who Love the Lord!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

There's so much incorrect information in Angela's post (I've gone over it in several past posts of mine), but for starters here, where she says,

"The key issues, are:

1. that heaven is not mentioned in the verse! ἀέρα or "air" is the air around us. Ouranos is heaven, and does not appear in this verse! So, we are not going to heaven with Jesus."


She concludes "we are not going to heaven with Jesus" BECAUSE THAT WORD ('heaven') IS NOT IN THIS VERSE (1Th4:17), but then [incorrectly] criticizes "pre-tribbers" who SUPPOSEDLY "only use ONE VERSE" to make our claims! (Wrong!)




Certainly she has studied about the need for reading "a verse" IN / WITHIN ITS "CONTEXT"... which this very verse IS IN THE CONTEXT OF what 3:13 HAD JUST SAID (about the LOCATION to which Jesus WILL BE TAKING US [following the "caught up / SNATCH [G726]"-word she denies we pre-tribbers use ... while somehow she's claiming the term "the Second Coming" IS in Scripture, which phrase is actually not...]);

Besides 3:13, the wording in 1Th4:14 is talking about God bringing WITH HIM [WITH JESUS] those [ALSO] who will have formerly been "the dead in Christ" (but who shall be resurrected prior to the "caught up / SNATCH" moment), whom God will bring WITH JESUS *SUBSEQUENTLY TO* the "caught up / SNATCH" thing (not BEFORE it, as she and many suppose this verse is saying)... i.e. the SEQUENCE MATTER of these two distinct things is misunderstood due to assumptions / preconceived notions about this, and by IGNORING the CONTEXT (v.3:13)...

... but I've explained that in many past posts, for those who care to study the matter.






There were many more flaws in her post (that was quoted) which I won't go into here... that's just a small sampling.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Hmmmmm..... no problem. Just need the right way to spin to deny it.
144,000 Jews!

And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel."
Revelation. 7:4​

Go ahead and deny that.

He thinks Gentiles are "the tribes of Israel"




So where the text states, "blindness [/a hardening] IN PART is happened TO ISRAEL," he inserts "GENTILES" where that word "Israel" is placed, instead. [So throughout Romans 9-11, he sees the words "Gentiles" and "Israel" as interchangeable, somehow ]

 

[cv5]

excellent post👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The idea of being “left behind” is all based in christian fiction. they made tons of christian movies in the 80’s with the anti christ and guillitines, christians running around in the dead of night foraging for food 🤦🏼‍♂️

No beliver is "left behind". None. Zero.

You are merchandising myths and cultural legends.

 

[Genez]

He thinks Gentiles are "the tribes of Israel"




So where the text states, "blindness [/a hardening] IN PART is happened TO ISRAEL," he inserts "GENTILES" where that word "Israel" is placed, instead. [So throughout Romans 9-11, he sees the words "Gentiles" and "Israel" as interchangeable, somehow ]

He thinks?????????????????
You call it that?

Which goes to prove..

Even Adam found a way out of obeying a command that even a second grader would clearly understand.

Obstinance = Anti-conviction.
Its a counterfeit state of mind used of the flesh to counter those who are secure in understanding...

The Lord will deal with them....

grace and peace ..................

 

[Genez]

No beliver is "left behind". None. Zero.

You are merchandising myths and cultural legends.

He's an attempt to see what they can gain leverage with..

Leave him be.
If anyone follows him they will end up seeing the soles of his shoes as he enters a ditch first.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No beliver is "left behind". None. Zero.

Right (though I'm not sensing that the poster was speaking of "believers" in particular there, who knows...)




"loipos [G3062 - adj - 'masculine plural of a derivative of G3700'*]" used in 1Th5:6 is in CONTRAST to the "us, who are of the Day"... (v.8a);

... where "loipos - G3062" carries this meaning:

"with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of the specified class or number: Luke 8:10; Luke 18:9; Acts 5:13; Romans 11:7; 1 Corinthians 7:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:6; 1 Timothy 5:20; Revelation 11:13; Revelation 19:21"

[underline mine]



[and *G3700 leipō --the verb--carries this meaning: "1. transitive, to leave, leave behind, forsake; passive to be left behind (properly, by one's rival in a race, hence)"... which perhaps is where some may have gotten the idea for titles of their fictional works (which they endeavored to base on the Bible)... I'm only guessing...]

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

No. Don't blame Yah for your subjective lines of parallel that you have drawing from your own imagination. The contextual definitions shown in the imagery of the olive trees in those other contexts is not absolutely parallel with Revelation contexts. Slaughtering context in order to remove it from limiting your contrived application of the images is nothing more than inconsistency at best.

MM

If you knew the Bible like you claim God Himself called the Jews Olive Trees. So no using God but rather QUOTING God. Plus, Paul used the same reference from GOD for the Gentiles. It's 100% fact and Bible. No matter what you say it's in the Bible as I presented it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I love how 1 Thess chapter 4 begins with a question whether people alive would ever see their dead loved ones again and Paul tells them YES, they will rise first and those alive will meet them.

And we know Paul was merely answering their question because in chapter 5 he tells these SAME PEOPLE: 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul is clearly talking about the Second Coming which has ""always"" been known as the Day of the Lord.

Paul even tells these people they are fully away this day comes like a thief in the night.


He verifies Jesus Matthew 24.


So once again, there is NO SCRIPTURE REFERENCE to a "secret coming."

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Something else I see no one wants to ever mention, Matthew 28, the Great Commission.

Why is this important.
This is the RISEN JESUS, He is KING right now and verse 18 tells us this: 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying : All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

So look at the KING's COMMAND:
19 Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

20 teaching them to observe all things whatever I commanded you. And lo, I am with you, all the days, to the conclusion of the age.


We know the End of the Age is the Second Coming. KING JESUS, with All Authority and Power in Heaven and Earth, so He is calling the shots, tells His Disciples to make disciples until the Second Coming.

Jesus confirms no secret Rapture.

We know the Age after the Second Coming is 1,000 years of Peace.

So Jesus confirms He is with us ""ALL of the DAYS"" to the Second Coming.

No Secret Heretical Rapture...

 

[MikeIsraelite72]

I don't know if your avatar name indicates you're a real Israelite, but I sure am, and what you're saying here is baseless. Back it up with something of substance, if you can.

MM

in all honesty, ive learned more about the character and will of God analyzing prophetic fulfillment in hindsight. In regards to the “rapture” doctrine and the idea of being “left behind” with a 7 year tribulation and christians being rounded up for the guilletine is non sense.

obviously we have John 5:28,29 and Rev. 20:4 but then Daniel 12:2 speaks about a singular event which i believe applies only to the 12 tribes:

“And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Daniel 12:2

This scenario in Daniel speaks of 2 types raised and my guess is that these are those “elected” by Yahweh, notice neither experience a “second death” nor are they thrown into the lake of fire. Both are raised

You do know Jesus said the Witnesses are Olive Trees and Lampstands?

That's a whole lotta people. More than just Jews, but Jews and Gentiles following Jesus.

There is no such imagination as “gentiles” however there are the “nations” where the gospel was taken before the temple was destroyed in 70ad. The same “nations” all descending from the loins of Jacob of whom over the last 2000 years have been established to the north and south, to the east and west as the blessed of God seperating them from the heathen nations that God has set his face against. The judeans who received the gospel prior to the destruction of the temple became christians fleeing the city as the roman armies surrounded jeruselem as described by Jesus. These christians journeyed out from Judea and into the same “nations” as their Israelite. brethren .

I hate to be a stickler regarding the usage of the words “jew and gentile” but as long as we continue to use them the blindness of the “Israel of God” will continue.

 

[Musicmaster]

If you knew the Bible like you claim God Himself called the Jews Olive Trees. So no using God but rather QUOTING God. Plus, Paul used the same reference from GOD for the Gentiles. It's 100% fact and Bible. No matter what you say it's in the Bible as I presented it.

Again, you chose a subjective mingling of contexts that are nowhere near proximity to one another, not to mention topical context, so you're gonna have to do better than this if you want to justify the ties you're trying to make from opposite ends of the Book.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

in all honesty, ive learned more about the character and will of God analyzing prophetic fulfillment in hindsight. In regards to the “rapture” doctrine and the idea of being “left behind” with a 7 year tribulation and christians being rounded up for the guilletine is non sense.

Indeed? Well, then let's look at that:

Acts 1:10-11
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

What was Yahshuah doing before and while ascending? He was showering them with instructions and blessings. The angels stated that He will come back in "like manner" as they saw Him going. No blood spattering His garment at that time, no wrath, anger and judgement, but rather blessing.

Now...

Revelation 19:11-16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The "manner" in which He ascended is NOTHING akin to His second coming at the end of the tribulation.

So, claiming His coming for the Church, with us called up to meet Him in the air, with no mention of Heaven opening, no mention of a white horse, no mention of crowns on His head, nothing about His clothing spattered with blood while leaving in the manner of His departure, none of the imagery is comparable in manner or or anything else.

If we look at the Greek word translated "like manner" (tropos ), we see that is has this meaning:

"1. a manner, way, fashion: ὅν τρόπον, as, even as, like as (Winers Grammar, § 32, 6; Buttmann, § 131, 12): Matthew 23:37; Luke 13:34; Acts 1:11 "

So, dare one do a systematic study, he will see that the two "comings" are not at all one and the same in any sense.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

I love how 1 Thess chapter 4 begins with a question whether people alive would ever see their dead loved ones again and Paul tells them YES, they will rise first and those alive will meet them.

And we know Paul was merely answering their question because in chapter 5 he tells these SAME PEOPLE: 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul is clearly talking about the Second Coming which has ""always"" been known as the Day of the Lord.

Paul even tells these people they are fully away this day comes like a thief in the night.


He verifies Jesus Matthew 24.


So once again, there is NO SCRIPTURE REFERENCE to a "secret coming."

Nope. Wrong!

You should do more study, because His coming as a thief in the night is a phenomenon that applies ONLY to those who are not watching. Those who are watching will know the hour of His coming so that they are not taken by it in the surprise of a "thief in the night."

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Nope. Wrong!

You should do more study, because His coming as a thief in the night is a phenomenon that applies ONLY to those who are not watching. Those who are watching will know the hour of His coming so that they are not taken by it in the surprise of a "thief in the night."

MM

Let's see then.

Paul is asked: about those loved ones who are deceased.

Here's his response:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Notice how he explains we will be together again:
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

NOW Remember, in reality, there ARE NO CHAPTERS so this is ONE THOUGHT:
3 Verses after 4:17 : 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul connects Verses 16 and 17 to Verse 2.

The Day of the LORD is always the Second Coming.

Paul connects the Thief in the Night to BELIEVERS in verse2 100%


Paul is writing to the CHURCH in Thessalonica not to Sinners!

Paul is TELLING the CHURCH in Thessalonica they are fully aware the day of the LORD comes like a thief in the Night.

Paul even says in verse 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

He's saying Believers should not be surprised when Jesus comes.

Paul is absolutely talking to CHRISTIANS to be SOBER and watchful so the Day of the Lord doesn't come as a surprise.

4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.
5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.
6 So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober


Paul said ""LET US KEEP AWAKE and be SOBER""


No way is Paul talking about some secret pre-trib Rapture.
He is absolutely talking about Raptured at the Second Coming, the DAY of the LORD!

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

There is no such imagination as “gentiles” however there are the “nations” where the gospel was taken before the temple was destroyed in 70ad. The same “nations” all descending from the loins of Jacob of whom over the last 2000 years have been established to the north and south, to the east and west as the blessed of God seperating them from the heathen nations that God has set his face against. The judeans who received the gospel prior to the destruction of the temple became christians fleeing the city as the roman armies surrounded jeruselem as described by Jesus. These christians journeyed out from Judea and into the same “nations” as their Israelite. brethren .

I hate to be a stickler regarding the usage of the words “jew and gentile” but as long as we continue to use them the blindness of the “Israel of God” will continue.

They are technically Gentile until they accept Jesus.
I am technically Jew until I accepted Jesus.

We don't have any such power to keep God from fulfilling His Plan at the Time He set it into motion. But I like what you have said

 

[Musicmaster]

Let's see then.

Paul is asked: about those loved ones who are deceased.

Here's his response:
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

Notice how he explains we will be together again:
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord

NOW Remember, in reality, there ARE NO CHAPTERS so this is ONE THOUGHT:
3 Verses after 4:17 : 2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.

Paul connects Verses 16 and 17 to Verse 2.

The Day of the LORD is always the Second Coming.

Paul connects the Thief in the Night to BELIEVERS in verse2 100%

Nope. That's not true. The "day of the Lord" is known to be the entirety of that 70th heptad, what is called the seven years tribulation, not His second coming.

Also notice that the Lord will call up His Church to Him in the air BEFORE the verses in chapter 5 that speak of the "day of the Lord." It's interesting that you overlook that with such abandon when it doesn't fit your narrative, because I agree that the chapter separation is purely subjective in this case.

Paul is writing to the CHURCH in Thessalonica not to Sinners!

Paul is TELLING the CHURCH in Thessalonica they are fully aware the day of the LORD comes like a thief in the Night.

And yet He tells that Church in Sardis that those who watch will know the hour of His coming, unlike those who do not watch.

Paul even says in verse 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.

Precisely my point. Believers who are watching will not suffer the wrath of the Lamb against Israel and the unbelieving world, and they will know the hour of His coming so that it is NOT as a "thief in the night" to them.

He's saying Believers should not be surprised when Jesus comes.

Nope. He is saying that believers will not be surprised by what they know is coming before it happens. The logic of all that is very clear, but some people just want to stick with perpetual ignorance for some strange reason. When the Lord makes known to those who watch that His coming is in that hour, He is not limited from doing so by anything He has ever said. It was indeed true for those 2000 years ago that NO man knew the day nor hour of His coming, but then He makes known to them that the day s coming when those who are alive WILL know the hour of His coming. It would be "as a thief in the night" to everyone if NOBODY knew in advance of His coming.

Paul is absolutely talking to CHRISTIANS to be SOBER and watchful so the Day of the Lord doesn't come as a surprise.

Yes, and Yahshuah speaking through John told Christians that they will know beforehand the hour of His coming for those who watch. Those who don't want to glean the understanding of "beforehand" can believe whatever they want, but that will never change what is said.

MM