So, you are saying that the unregenerate CAN believe the gospel truths but doing so will not save him. Somehow he believes something he himself also considers foolishness. Can you give an example of something else a person can believe to be accurate and true, but they can at the same time also consider foolishness?
Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
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Proper interpretation is not ignoring certain phrases and context and imposing different phrases and context into another. And this is what you're doing.
To properly harmonize, each concept needs to stand on it's own and be properly integrated into the whole. It's not much different than working on a big jigsaw puzzle - each piece has it's own place. You're simply forcing a piece where it doesn't fit.
The reason I posted the "faith" verses from 1Peter is to show how Peter in context is primarily speaking of men's faith in God. The reason I pointed out the last instance is because "the faith" (instead of "your faith" or "through faith") can begin pointing us back to what is basically the Gospel that was delivered in finality to God's Holy Ones (Jude1:3) and was originated and perfected/completed by our Lord (Heb12:2).
The reason I pointed out the importance IMO of what you did identify in Galatians is because it can get interesting when we get deeper into the concept of faith wherein we can see a lot of connection between Jesus' faith and ours. In that verse from 1Pet you're saying is Christ's faith I would be open to exploring some of this connection with you, but not to the exclusion of the faith of those Peter wrote to, which in context seems quite obvious.
The other thing I'll note in this matter of the faith of Christ is that it seems interpreters have for some reason a difficult time saying Jesus' faith (His believing). They seem to have to take it to His faithfulness. Although the 2 are vitally interconnected, I just read what the Text says, apart from an English translation, and it seems quite clearly to speak of Jesus' faith - the faith of Jesus Christ. But, in all fairness, a translator has a choice to make from approximately 30 different ways "of" can be translated.
To properly harmonize, each concept needs to stand on it's own and be properly integrated into the whole. It's not much different than working on a big jigsaw puzzle - each piece has it's own place. You're simply forcing a piece where it doesn't fit.
The reason I posted the "faith" verses from 1Peter is to show how Peter in context is primarily speaking of men's faith in God. The reason I pointed out the last instance is because "the faith" (instead of "your faith" or "through faith") can begin pointing us back to what is basically the Gospel that was delivered in finality to God's Holy Ones (Jude1:3) and was originated and perfected/completed by our Lord (Heb12:2).
The reason I pointed out the importance IMO of what you did identify in Galatians is because it can get interesting when we get deeper into the concept of faith wherein we can see a lot of connection between Jesus' faith and ours. In that verse from 1Pet you're saying is Christ's faith I would be open to exploring some of this connection with you, but not to the exclusion of the faith of those Peter wrote to, which in context seems quite obvious.
The other thing I'll note in this matter of the faith of Christ is that it seems interpreters have for some reason a difficult time saying Jesus' faith (His believing). They seem to have to take it to His faithfulness. Although the 2 are vitally interconnected, I just read what the Text says, apart from an English translation, and it seems quite clearly to speak of Jesus' faith - the faith of Jesus Christ. But, in all fairness, a translator has a choice to make from approximately 30 different ways "of" can be translated.
OK, so you said it was a general exhortation. So, in your view general seems to include those "in Christ" which I assume you mean Christians.
I understood you quite well. And although it seems more than fair that Paul would not be assuming all in the Galatian Churches were in Christ, the reason I went through the exercise of showing from the Text who Paul is addressing, I think you're hard-pressed to find that his focus is not his fear - his concern for those in Christ who are in danger of being deceived into deserting to another/different gospel, turning again to bondage, seeing Paul as an enemy, desiring to be under law (vs. under grace), being entangled in bondage, having Christ be of no advantage to them, being estranged/released/set aside/discharged from Christ, fallen from grace, going from running well [in faith] to becoming disobedient to truth (which correlates to having no faith).
So, if you want to ignore all of this in favor of a theological model you favor, attempt to tell me I can't read Scripture in context, do not understand purpose so can't understand context, and you'd prefer to bow out, then please do.
Before you go, Paul does clearly believe an individual is saved by grace. Paul and the rest of the Text clearly present Biblical Salvation as a process that some identify as Justification > Sanctification > Glorification. Within this process, Paul clearly in fear warns those in Christ of the dangers of being deceived into deserting to another Gospel and falling from Grace and being released from Christ. There are several places that warn those in Christ about being deceived and command them not to be deceived. This becomes very circular because to disobey God's command is to be in a lack of faith and in this case to be deceived.
The rest of my answer will be to say that, yes, the Christian is involved in collaborating with God in this Salvation Process. And I'm happy to discuss all the active commands given to those in Christ to continue to believe, to abide, to endure, and so on, including to accomplish their salvation by work in collaboration with God who is providing the capabilities to both will and do what pleases Him.
It all just goes back to the foundational lesson Jesus gave to the woman at the well in John 4. God is Spirit and is seeking those who must and will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and in truth. This is quite simply a statement about the necessity to enter into and remain in faith obedience to Him as He teaches, commands and requires of those He gives to His Son. And it is these who the Son will raise in the last day. It is also these who truly love the Father, the Son and one another as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us.
It's only systematic theological models that make this difficult.
I understood you quite well. And although it seems more than fair that Paul would not be assuming all in the Galatian Churches were in Christ, the reason I went through the exercise of showing from the Text who Paul is addressing, I think you're hard-pressed to find that his focus is not his fear - his concern for those in Christ who are in danger of being deceived into deserting to another/different gospel, turning again to bondage, seeing Paul as an enemy, desiring to be under law (vs. under grace), being entangled in bondage, having Christ be of no advantage to them, being estranged/released/set aside/discharged from Christ, fallen from grace, going from running well [in faith] to becoming disobedient to truth (which correlates to having no faith).
So, if you want to ignore all of this in favor of a theological model you favor, attempt to tell me I can't read Scripture in context, do not understand purpose so can't understand context, and you'd prefer to bow out, then please do.
Before you go, Paul does clearly believe an individual is saved by grace. Paul and the rest of the Text clearly present Biblical Salvation as a process that some identify as Justification > Sanctification > Glorification. Within this process, Paul clearly in fear warns those in Christ of the dangers of being deceived into deserting to another Gospel and falling from Grace and being released from Christ. There are several places that warn those in Christ about being deceived and command them not to be deceived. This becomes very circular because to disobey God's command is to be in a lack of faith and in this case to be deceived.
The rest of my answer will be to say that, yes, the Christian is involved in collaborating with God in this Salvation Process. And I'm happy to discuss all the active commands given to those in Christ to continue to believe, to abide, to endure, and so on, including to accomplish their salvation by work in collaboration with God who is providing the capabilities to both will and do what pleases Him.
It all just goes back to the foundational lesson Jesus gave to the woman at the well in John 4. God is Spirit and is seeking those who must and will bow in obeisance to Him in Spirit and in truth. This is quite simply a statement about the necessity to enter into and remain in faith obedience to Him as He teaches, commands and requires of those He gives to His Son. And it is these who the Son will raise in the last day. It is also these who truly love the Father, the Son and one another as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us.
It's only systematic theological models that make this difficult.
Apparently it is you who cannot read when a yes or no is elaborated in order to make it clear and provide the reasoning behind it. Read my last four paragraphs. The last part of your question is leading and actually a bit ridiculous.
Also, it is you who does not answer whether or not Paul is focused on warning those in Christ of the dangers confronting them. To make his focus "general" is just a dodge from the matter at hand.
Also, it is you who does not answer whether or not Paul is focused on warning those in Christ of the dangers confronting them. To make his focus "general" is just a dodge from the matter at hand.
Once again Cameron, I've refused to answer nothing you're suggesting.
It seems elaborations are difficult for you to digest, so I'll simplify things for you by excerpting:
Hopefully you can see that I'm not normally prone to answering leading questions simplistically.
What guts your argument is your unwillingness or inability to read Galatians in context and answer whether or not Paul was afraid that some in Christ would fall from grace and be released from Christ. One does not fall from where one is not, nor does one get released from where one is not held, and so on with every phrase Paul puts forth in his warning and commands to those in Christ.
IMO it is these systematic theological models that do not make use of the full counsel of God, but rather take one favored concept they base their model on and then deny what Scripture clearly says in context. That's presuppositional interpretation and a lack of harmonizing the full counsel.
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A little odd when you also say, God moved within the biblical scribes, and the biblical scribes alone, to write exactly what He wanted written; the way He wanted it written. This transcended any and all (individual) thought processes, background, and cultural aspects/factors.
I just happened upon that post now. I disagree with @Cameron143 on this, also. Just the
other day he said you can't have it both ways and here he wants to have it both ways.
other day he said you can't have it both ways and here he wants to have it both ways.
We perceive faith differently because we perceive Jesus differently with His role a point of departure between us regarding faith,
and thereby of what fits and doesn't fit. While it would be very interesting and tempting to discuss faith standalone along with its attributes, it would also seemingly be fruitless to undertake until Jesus's role in salvation is first resolved and agreed upon. To me, it is quite simple - and as I believe we are so instructed by the Bible - that Jesus, and Jesus alone is the Saviour to the uttermost, to include everything that title implies, with nothing outside of it that man must/can contribute to it. So, while it is very tempting to think about a further exploration of faith, could it be meaningful without first having agreement on Jesus, who is the basis of faith?
and thereby of what fits and doesn't fit. While it would be very interesting and tempting to discuss faith standalone along with its attributes, it would also seemingly be fruitless to undertake until Jesus's role in salvation is first resolved and agreed upon. To me, it is quite simple - and as I believe we are so instructed by the Bible - that Jesus, and Jesus alone is the Saviour to the uttermost, to include everything that title implies, with nothing outside of it that man must/can contribute to it. So, while it is very tempting to think about a further exploration of faith, could it be meaningful without first having agreement on Jesus, who is the basis of faith?
So, if one is in Christ and involved in collaborating in God's Salvation Process and that one in Christ can desert and fall from grace and be released from Christ whereby Christ is no longer of advantage to him, then does that one in Christ play a collaborative role in being saved? Do I have to spell out for you what I see Paul saying very clearly. I'd rather you read Scripture and let it speak to you without anybody changing it to fit a devised theological model. I think Paul and my view of what he's saying here is vividly clear.
And then, what is "saved" in Galatians? Is the word save (or any cognate) or salvation even used by Paul in Galatians?
NET Galatians 3:1 You foolish (BDAG Lexicon: unintelligent, foolish, dull-witted; L-N Lexicon includes "stupid") Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish (BDAG Lexicon: unintelligent, foolish, dull-witted; L-N Lexicon includes "stupid")? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?
So, do you think Paul is talking about Salvation here? Does receipt of the Spirit by believing hat you heard sound like part of the beginning of the Salvation process?
Does Salvation have a beginning and a "finish"? Are we truly saved, being saved, and will be saved (the Salvation Process) if we desert and fall from grace after we begin? If we do not finish, no problem because we started? So all the commands to abide and endure and grow and pursue the high call of God in Christ Jesus are meaningless and we do nothing in the process in collaboration with God who literally energizes (energeō) us to both will and do what pleases Him? If we desert Him and fall from grace is He still energizing is to accomplish (aka finish. complete, perfect) our Salvation in fear and trembling?
Grace and Peace to you too...
And then, what is "saved" in Galatians? Is the word save (or any cognate) or salvation even used by Paul in Galatians?
NET Galatians 3:1 You foolish (BDAG Lexicon: unintelligent, foolish, dull-witted; L-N Lexicon includes "stupid") Galatians! Who has cast a spell on you? Before your eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified! 2 The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish (BDAG Lexicon: unintelligent, foolish, dull-witted; L-N Lexicon includes "stupid")? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort?
So, do you think Paul is talking about Salvation here? Does receipt of the Spirit by believing hat you heard sound like part of the beginning of the Salvation process?
Does Salvation have a beginning and a "finish"? Are we truly saved, being saved, and will be saved (the Salvation Process) if we desert and fall from grace after we begin? If we do not finish, no problem because we started? So all the commands to abide and endure and grow and pursue the high call of God in Christ Jesus are meaningless and we do nothing in the process in collaboration with God who literally energizes (energeō) us to both will and do what pleases Him? If we desert Him and fall from grace is He still energizing is to accomplish (aka finish. complete, perfect) our Salvation in fear and trembling?
Grace and Peace to you too...
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This is the problem theological models have created re: works. God created us for good works. When we enter into Christ we are to become workers of good. Yet certain theological models scream at us when we mention works IMO because they do not properly understand mainly Faith and Salvation and [Good] Works.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)
@PaulThomson and I have been discussing translations.
2 So, my dear people: you always did what I said, so please now carry on in the same way, not just as though I was there with you, but much more because I’m not! Your task now is to work at bringing about your own salvation; and naturally you’ll be taking this with utter seriousness. 13 After all, God himself is the one who’s at work among you, who provides both the will and the energy to enable you to do what pleases him. NTFE Phil2:12-13
Virtually all English translations defer to the translation "work out [your own salvation]." English translations are mostly a product of the Reformation when works salvation was being heavily contested. It's still an issue in theology.
N.T. Wright is one of the men who is deeply involved in new studies of Paul's writings. He is the first one I've seen who ventures away from this "work out" translation.
To simplify this, the word Paul uses is katergazomai. There another word that is very similar - ergazomai. To cut to the end, katergazomai is an emphasized word. It's creating a bit of a different focus:
Here's the most basic info on ergazomai per the BDAG Lexicon: 1. to engage in activity that involves effort, work,
Here's the most basic info on katergazomai per BDAG: 1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do
We can see why Wright translates as he does. Before he published his Bible translation, I was simply translating this as "accomplish by work our own salvation..." It's nice to have some scholarly confirmation.
We cannot contribute anything to God's Salvation Plan nor can we do what He does for us that we cannot do. But to say we do not collaborate with Him in our Salvation as He requires of us and has His Apostles commanding us to do in obedience to Him is poor theology IMO. As such is is not the Faith of/from Jesus Christ aka the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its full scope.
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12-13 NKJ)
@PaulThomson and I have been discussing translations.
2 So, my dear people: you always did what I said, so please now carry on in the same way, not just as though I was there with you, but much more because I’m not! Your task now is to work at bringing about your own salvation; and naturally you’ll be taking this with utter seriousness. 13 After all, God himself is the one who’s at work among you, who provides both the will and the energy to enable you to do what pleases him. NTFE Phil2:12-13
Virtually all English translations defer to the translation "work out [your own salvation]." English translations are mostly a product of the Reformation when works salvation was being heavily contested. It's still an issue in theology.
N.T. Wright is one of the men who is deeply involved in new studies of Paul's writings. He is the first one I've seen who ventures away from this "work out" translation.
To simplify this, the word Paul uses is katergazomai. There another word that is very similar - ergazomai. To cut to the end, katergazomai is an emphasized word. It's creating a bit of a different focus:
Here's the most basic info on ergazomai per the BDAG Lexicon: 1. to engage in activity that involves effort, work,
Here's the most basic info on katergazomai per BDAG: 1. to bring about a result by doing someth., achieve, accomplish, do
We can see why Wright translates as he does. Before he published his Bible translation, I was simply translating this as "accomplish by work our own salvation..." It's nice to have some scholarly confirmation.
We cannot contribute anything to God's Salvation Plan nor can we do what He does for us that we cannot do. But to say we do not collaborate with Him in our Salvation as He requires of us and has His Apostles commanding us to do in obedience to Him is poor theology IMO. As such is is not the Faith of/from Jesus Christ aka the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its full scope.
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C. Last paragraph first. No, not TO become permanently righteous in status, because when His faith is imputed to us, by that, we already have become justified and made righteous by Christ - our faith comes from salvation, it does not bring salvation to us. Faith is never withheld from those to whom it was given, neither taken from those to who have it. Everyone falls into earthly, carnal sin from time to time, but those who have been given faith in Jesus as Saviour by God, will never lose their faith in Him, because to do so would be not only be a sin, but the sin, which sin, God, through Christ, would never permit to be committed by His elect after becoming born-again, which is what 1 Peter 1 generally informs us of. Neither does committing carnal, earthly sin cause the loss of our salvation.
To say that any sin can do so to those saved, is to say that sin is greater and more powerful than the offering which Jesus provided, which simply is not possible.
A is essentially saying what the verse I posted says. It did not say that Jesus does the believing for us. Instead, it is through that which Jesus's faith brought to fruition (salvation), that our sin is forgiven, and by that, are we given a renewed heart and mind by which we then have spiritual discernment and come to a belief in Him as Saviour. BTW, unless I misread it, faithfulness is a noun with the same definition as faith.
B. It is not possible to truly believe unless first having been given spiritual discernment. Spiritual discernment is only received from/through salvation. It is an effect, not a cause. I believe the "of" which you left out, was implied therein.
Consequently, having already considered the interpretations you've mention above, I nevertheless am persuaded that the way the
verse is stated in the KJV is correct.