There will be no Rapture!!!
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Some are really hip on trying to make something what it is not, and scripture shows to us that the Lord, when He means many, two or three, or just two, He means what He says without the convolutions of false associations in order to allegorize scripture into saying something that it does not say:
1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Revelation 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
I prefer to leave the practice of allegorizing scripture into whatever subjective meaning the speaker wishes, pointing at seemingly realistic parallels as if there is no wiggle room to say that those parallels MAY actually have some other meaning than what the speaker thinks...that kind of tactic I leave to the Vatican and all its historic antics in trying to make scripture say what it clearly does not.
The thought that millions of believers worldwide will allegedly head down to their local farmers COOP to acquire sackcloth to wear for three and a half years...come on!
MM
1 Timothy 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Revelation 11:3 And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
I prefer to leave the practice of allegorizing scripture into whatever subjective meaning the speaker wishes, pointing at seemingly realistic parallels as if there is no wiggle room to say that those parallels MAY actually have some other meaning than what the speaker thinks...that kind of tactic I leave to the Vatican and all its historic antics in trying to make scripture say what it clearly does not.
The thought that millions of believers worldwide will allegedly head down to their local farmers COOP to acquire sackcloth to wear for three and a half years...come on!
MM
The olive trees and the two lamps, claiming they always and only represent two masses of people as the witnesses, and therefore the Lord not saying what He really means...come on!
Olive trees, with many leaves and much fruit, can indeed represent masses of people, and two lamp stands can represent Churches...but which ones, or where else do two of them represent Israel and the Church without forcing that meaning into the text?
Olive trees provide the fruit of oil that fuel the lampstands for their light. The light of the lampstands can be the light within the two witnesses. In other words, the prayers of the voluminous saints that arise up to the Throne of the Most high may indeed, to the Lord, be the olive tree fuel for the lampstands to light the way for the two witnesses.
You see, this can go in more than one direction rather than to stick with staunch indifference to just one interpretation.
MM
Olive trees, with many leaves and much fruit, can indeed represent masses of people, and two lamp stands can represent Churches...but which ones, or where else do two of them represent Israel and the Church without forcing that meaning into the text?
Olive trees provide the fruit of oil that fuel the lampstands for their light. The light of the lampstands can be the light within the two witnesses. In other words, the prayers of the voluminous saints that arise up to the Throne of the Most high may indeed, to the Lord, be the olive tree fuel for the lampstands to light the way for the two witnesses.
You see, this can go in more than one direction rather than to stick with staunch indifference to just one interpretation.
MM
... I didn't say that!
The problem is you subjectively choosing that particular imagery as absolute. Scripture can interpret scripture, and sometimes it does not. I have shown examples of the Lord specifying the number of witnesses just as you chose lampstands and olive trees in other contexts, and there is just as much weight of argument on my side as there is on yours.
At best, we can say that we don't know exactly how things will play out with the two witnesses, and remaining dogmatic about it one way or the other is just human pride. In other words, you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt, and I have introduced reasonable doubt. You may not like that, and if you don't, that's just too darn bad, dude. I'm not so choked full of pride to demand that my presentation is the absolute and only answer. I don't know for sure either way, but for you to think that your case is better...no. Not at all. Far from it. You may have some buddies in here on your side, but that's only an appeal to popularity.
So, if we can agree these scenarios as possibilities, then great. If not...oh well. Get your old hat out of the closet and see if it still fits...
MM
At best, we can say that we don't know exactly how things will play out with the two witnesses, and remaining dogmatic about it one way or the other is just human pride. In other words, you haven't proven your case beyond a reasonable doubt, and I have introduced reasonable doubt. You may not like that, and if you don't, that's just too darn bad, dude. I'm not so choked full of pride to demand that my presentation is the absolute and only answer. I don't know for sure either way, but for you to think that your case is better...no. Not at all. Far from it. You may have some buddies in here on your side, but that's only an appeal to popularity.
So, if we can agree these scenarios as possibilities, then great. If not...oh well. Get your old hat out of the closet and see if it still fits...
MM
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour." 1 Peter 5:8
Heavens can refer to the sky and the earth’s atmosphere, making it the “first heaven” (Deuteronomy 11:11; Psalm 104:12; Isaiah 55:10). It can also refer to outer space, where the stars and planets are—the “second heaven” (Psalm 8:3; Isaiah 13:10). And it can refer to God’s dwelling place, which is beyond the other “heavens,” a place known as the “third heaven” (Psalm 33:13–14; Isaiah 66:1; Matthew 6:9; Hebrews 7:26; Revelation 11:19). When Paul says that he went to the third heaven, he means that he went to the place where God dwells.
I take it that Satan was ejected from the "third heaven", where God's throne resides.
But I would not want to be dogmatic about this. For me, it makes little difference one way or another.
I take it that Satan was ejected from the "third heaven", where God's throne resides.
But I would not want to be dogmatic about this. For me, it makes little difference one way or another.
No. Don't blame Yah for your subjective lines of parallel that you have drawing from your own imagination. The contextual definitions shown in the imagery of the olive trees in those other contexts is not absolutely parallel with Revelation contexts. Slaughtering context in order to remove it from limiting your contrived application of the images is nothing more than inconsistency at best.
MM
MM