It is a symbol the same as communion. It is not needed for salvation. It is important, but it saves no one.
Saul of Tarsus was not saved on the road to Damascus.
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It is a symbol the same as communion. It is not needed for salvation. It is important, but it saves no one.
just because God has things for us to do doesn't mean we aren't saved until we do them.
there would be no salvation for anyone, ever, if that was the case. all anyone would have is a far away promise and a set of goalposts that never stop moving.
And this is like the thief on the cross.... it was a one-time kind of thing... they received the Holy Spirit before baptism to prove to the Jews that Gentiles were accepted by God.... and they were immediately water baptized...
arguing about this is senseless.... the predominant pattern of salvation was to hear the word, be convicted in your heart, accept Jesus as your savior, and be baptized. It's a multi-faceted event. Salvation is a free gift... we cannot "earn" it, we can only accept it. It is a covenant that God made with his church. Because we accept the free gift, we show the world that we accepted it by being baptized, for the removal (remission) of our sins. It is an appeal to God to give us a clear conscience... we do that just like the Jews did circumcision.. that was their "outward sign" of accepting the covenant with God.
It's necessary, as it completes the process of our entering into God's new covenant/kingdom.
trying to determine the "exact moment" of "salvation" is pointless, trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
it's all part of the salvation experience.
If you insist the baptism "isn't necessary", you are re-writing God's word to suit your own mis-conceptions.
it fairly quickly, in a historical sense, became the pattern of the church to wait until a person's deathbed before they were baptized. Augustine was a famous example.
the idea spread that it was through baptism that sins were forgiven, and along with that idea was the idea that sins comitted after baptism were not forgiven.
not something i agree with, but that's the history of the church.
speaking of history, it's interesting that the scripture doesn't record any mention of any of the disciples being baptized, nor any the apostles, save Paul, and it does specifically say Jesus baptized no one ((with water)).
i suppose one could make the argument for Peter, when he sank into the sea, after looking to Christ and walking on it, towards Him.
also Jesus Christ - "whoever believes will be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned already"
and while we're at it, no one in the Bible, ever - "whoever is not baptized is condemned"
verses are not pitted against each other. when they seem to be at odds, it means we don't understand one or both of them correctly, and they can be understood by adding more verses until the complete picture where they all agree is clear - and that picture will always be glorifying Christ.
What about arguing? Each thread ends up the same - at some point you end up convinced if a person has done everything else but is not water baptized, they go to hell. According to you, Cornelius and his whole household went to hell. And yes, the thief on the cross with Jesus went to hell. Every person who asked Jesus into their heart but wasn’t water baptized went to hell. I wonder what spirit is motivating such confusion and rigidity with this belief?Just planting seeds. Some plant, some water, and it is God who gives the increase. The word of God is sharper than a two-edged sword. It does not return void. Keep in mind silence accomplishes nothing. Unless it is silent prayer of course.
actually, they demonstrate the fact that something is, indeed a "rule".... that's why they are called exceptions...exceptions prove a thing isn't actually a rule
If salvation for the house of Cornelius was handled differently to prove that the gentiles were accepted, then why would Peter say this:
“And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.”
Acts 15:8-9 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/act.15.8-9.KJV
The word no as underlined above is the Greek word outhen. It is not a simple no. It means not one. Peter doesn’t seem to agree that this was different.
Just exactly WHERE does the Bible say that “ just because God has things for us to do, doesn’t mean we are not saved until we do them.”? I have NEVER read a scripture that teaches that. I believe that is just your opinion. But there are many scriptures that teach OBEDIENCE is necessary to salvation. 2 Thess. 1 says those who do not OBEY the gospel of Jesus Christ will be lost. Christ has given us commands for salvation and He expects them to be obeyed. If you want to see how God feels about those who do not obey his commandments look at Nadab and Abihu in Leviticus 10. They were killed just for not using the correct “fire” to offer incense to God. God had told them exactly what to do and they, like you, didn’t think it was that important. Or read about the first King of Israel, Saul, who didn’t obey God’s instructions about killing the Amalakites in 1 Samuel 15. God took the throne away from Saul’s family.. or the story of Uzzah in 2 Samuel 6–He was killed for touching the ark-because God had told them not to touch it. Do you think those people thought it was ok not to do what God says? If you want to risk your soul’s salvation on the opinion that we are saved regardless of whether we obey God’s instructions or not, you go ahead. As for me, I’ll listen to 2 Peter 1:10 who tells us to make our “call and election sure..”
I don’t know why you would think Cornelius and his household went to hell, because they obeyed Christ in “water” baptism after being COMMANDED by the apostle Peter to be baptized in verses 46-48 of Acts 10.
As far as the thief on the cross goes, he was living under the old Jewish law of Moses which did not require baptism to be saved. Jesus’s “will” that taught Baptism for the remission of sins, was not in effect until Jesus death—just like anyone’s “will” today. And that message was preached for the first time 50 days AFTER Jesus and the thief s’ death in Jerusalem in Acts 2.
Jesus made “faith” and “baptism” EQUAL in importance by connecting them together with the conjunction “and” in Mark 16:16 - “He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved.” So, yes, baptism is just as important as faith according to the Messiah. And please notice that The Christ puts salvation AFTER baptism—NOT BEFORE baptism. So, if you can be saved without baptism, then I guess you can be saved without “faith”. According to Jesus they stand or fall together.
And please don’t insult our intelligence by saying that because Jesus only said those who don’t believe will be condemned and not those who are not baptized. God knew, as should you, that an unbeliever would NEVER be baptized in the name of Jesus— why would he if he is an unbeliever?? Did Jesus need to tell you, “” he that believes not and is not baptised shall be condemned? I’m glad God credited us with enough common sense to understand that he did not have to say that for us to know it would never happen.
How should I respond. This is so ludicrous in view of the TRUE GOSPEL OF GOD, that all I can do is simply laugh.
HAHAHAHA!It's a multi-faceted event. Salvation is a free gift... we cannot "earn" it, we can only accept it. It is a covenant that God made with his church. Because we accept the free gift, we show the world that we accepted it by being baptized, for the removal (remission) of our sins. It is an appeal to God to give us a clear conscience... we do that just like the Jews did circumcision.. that was their "outward sign" of accepting the covenant with God.
It's necessary, as it completes the process of our entering into God's new covenant/kingdom.
trying to determine the "exact moment" of "salvation" is pointless, trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
it's all part of the salvation experience.
If you insist the baptism "isn't necessary", you are re-writing God's word to suit your own mis-conceptions.[/QUOTE]
Checkmate!
It's necessary, as it completes the process of our entering into God's new covenant/kingdom.
trying to determine the "exact moment" of "salvation" is pointless, trying to determine how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
it's all part of the salvation experience.
If you insist the baptism "isn't necessary", you are re-writing God's word to suit your own mis-conceptions.[/QUOTE]
Checkmate!
Yep Cornelius wasn’t a good example because he was baptized. The point is that while water baptism is important, if a person has a deathbed conversion, gets saved but dies on the way to the baptistery, or in some way isn’t able to get water baptized before death, they will still go to Heaven.
Pssst, yes they were, but it wasn't what saved them.
Yes, like I said before, it is a symbol, a sign, the same as communion. It's important. But it doesn't save you.
I didn't say it wasn't necessary, I said it doesn't save you.
Agree, Cornelius was a quick take. The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), the publican (Luke 18:13-14), are probably better examples. We agree on the point, water baptism doesn't save a person.
actually, they demonstrate the fact that something is, indeed a "rule".... that's why they are called exceptions...
well that proves we have a deficient definition of "rule"
Genesis 15:6-7
And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Then He said to him,
"I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to inherit it."
Abraham still has to inherit the land, but because he believed, the LORD accredited him with righteousness before telling him he must do this. and the Spirit speaking through Paul in Romans 4 calls this belief his salvation, long before even circumcision was given to him to do. therefore the mere fact God has things for Abraham yet to do cannot mean Abraham does not have salvation.
you were incorrect to say you have never read a scripture that teaches this: you have read these scriptures, but you haven't understood that this is what they say.