Does thought(s) actually control us

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maxwel

maxwel

Senior Member
#21
Apr 18, 2013
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#21
Cameron143 said:
The question was whether or not our thoughts control us. Of course desires aren't thoughts. I simply said I believe that it is thoughts filtered through the prism of the understanding of the heart that directs the thoughts into action.
Click to expand...
"Of course desires aren't thoughts."

Really?

I think if you start defining your terms, you'll immediately see the complexity of this issue.
Define the word desire... and then prove that's not a thought.

If desires aren't thoughts... then what are they?
What are they if not thoughts?
What would you call them?
There is nothing else to call them, because desires are thoughts.
They meet all the definitions of thoughts, and they meet no definitions of anything else.
(We might distinguish categories of thoughts, such as conscious and subconscious, but we're still left with thoughts.)

They are thoughts.

Desires are thoughts.

Even biological desires are thoughts, as they come directly from neurons in the brain.
You cannot identify one desire, of any kind, that isn't a thought.
You cannot.
You cannot because there is no such thing.


Here's a good rule of thumb for both debate and teaching:
Before stating a proposition, we should make sure we can define each and every term.
If we cannot, we are probably, quite unintentionally, engaging in some accidental equivocation.





Alright Brother, your thoughts about thoughts have worn me out.
I need to go think about not thinking.

.
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#22
Aug 10, 2019
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#22
I suggest that it would be worthwhile to look up all of the verses in the Bible containing the word 'thoughts' along with either 'heart' or 'mind' - a good place to start. :)

Feel free to use the Bible search program on my website if you would like.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#23
Mar 1, 2022
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#23
maxwel said:
"Of course desires aren't thoughts."

Really?

I think if you start defining your terms, you'll immediately see the complexity of this issue.
Define the word desire... and then prove that's not a thought.

If desires aren't thoughts... then what are they?
What are they if not thoughts?
What would you call them?
There is nothing else to call them, because desires are thoughts.
They meet all the definitions of thoughts, and they meet no definitions of anything else.
(We might distinguish categories of thoughts, such as conscious and subconscious, but we're still left with thoughts.)

They are thoughts.

Desires are thoughts.

Even biological desires are thoughts, as they come directly from neurons in the brain.
You cannot identify one desire, of any kind, that isn't a thought.
You cannot.
You cannot because there is no such thing.


Here's a good rule of thumb for both debate and teaching:
Before stating a proposition, we should make sure we can define each and every term.
If we cannot, we are probably, quite unintentionally, engaging in some accidental equivocation.





Alright Brother, your thoughts about thoughts have worn me out.
I need to go think about not thinking.

.
Click to expand...
A desire is a want.

I didn't realize we were debating. I thought we were engaged in a discussion. I have no problem defining terms as I understand them or answering questions to give additional information or clarify what I have shared. But I'm not debating anyone when I post here. I'm learning and sharing what I have learned.
 
GaryA

GaryA

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#24
Aug 10, 2019
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#24
GaryA said:
I suggest that it would be worthwhile to look up all of the verses in the Bible containing the word 'thoughts' along with either 'heart' or 'mind' - a good place to start. :)

Feel free to use the Bible search program on my website if you would like.
Click to expand...
Perhaps better yet - look up 'thought' along with 'heart' or 'mind' as a partial word search on all three words...
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#25
Aug 10, 2019
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#25
GaryA said:
Perhaps better yet - look up 'thought' along with 'heart' or 'mind' as a partial word search on all three words...
Click to expand...
And then - replace the word 'thought' with the word 'desire' and perform a partial word search on all three words...
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#26
May 21, 2022
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#26
GaryA said:
And then - replace the word 'thought' with the word 'desire' and perform a partial word search on all three words...
Click to expand...
What do you mean by partial word search?
 
GaryA

GaryA

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#27
Aug 10, 2019
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#27
HeIsHere said:
What do you mean by partial word search?
Click to expand...
A search that will return a match for any word containing the search word - not just an exact match of the whole word.

thought
thoughts

heart
hearts

mind
minds

desire
desireth

(In other words, so as to try to match every form of each of the words.)
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#28
May 21, 2022
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#28
GaryA said:
A search that will return a match for any word containing the search word - not just an exact match of the whole word.

thought
thoughts

heart
hearts

mind
minds

desire
desireth

(In other words, so as to try to match every form of each of the words.)
Click to expand...
That I can do, but I did not see a Bible search program on you website.
 
GaryA

GaryA

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#29
Aug 10, 2019
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#29
For example, a partial word search on the word 'desire' yields results that show all of these words are used:

desire
desired
desiredst
desires
desirest
desireth
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#30
Oct 24, 2012
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#30
maxwel said:
I appreciate you thinking through this, and making an effort to answer more articulately.

Different Christian philosophers and theologians all deal with this differently, and would offer different answers.
I could post more scripture, and logical arguments, but I think you see the point here:
it's a very complex issue, and it may be one of those areas in scripture where the data is underdeterminative.

For the sake of this thread, it might be best to just revisit the title, and rethink the thesis.
"Do our thoughts control us?"
The thesis doesn't specify mind or heart, but just thoughts.
As you described the heart, mind and will, you were clearly describing different centers of spirit or consciousness for which "thoughts" occur in each. Thoughts can be seen to occur, even by your own definitions, in each of those places.
So for the sake of this thread, making a distinction between mind and heart (if such distinction truly exists ontologically) would seem to be beyond the scope of the thesis.

Wherever thoughts do occur... they do indeed seem to be handling the steering.

Interesting stuff, but terribly messy and complicated.
Have a great week.


.
Click to expand...
I think, emotions respond to thought. Therefore whatever a person thinks, so is he (Proverbs 23:7)
Thought to this day has not been found in our brains. Eye sight, feelings of, hearing, touch etc.
Thought I do believe comes from the Heart. Either one's heart gets seen as evil by the first born person and in need of new life, which is the risen Jesus Christ for us the people to get given the new heart, offered by belief, 100%. Ezekiel 36:26. God gives it. I need to be dead to the first born me, reckoned this as in Romans 6:1-12

Me I see this, I am in a body of unredeemed flesh and blood, that fallen nature of the first Adam. Which is why man cannot be perfect to fulfill Law, man can do a few, some many, yet not all. yet can't be perfect, no flesh can or could but Son Jesus, (Romans 8:1-3) who was born of Woman, not man
Back to Emotions

Emotions, do not know any right or wrong. Emotions, predictably respond to whatever is in the mind at that moment of that person, and it is by thought one is controlled in emotions over the thought, happening in the mind at that time.
Try this/ Get Angry, mad Upset, right now. without the thought(s) of anger, upset's!
That is why, we are to take all thought captive to the mind of Christ.
Hoping, to help us grow deeper in the grace given us to see it clearer. Then see the other side of the double edged sword. And know God is sharper than any double edged sword.
The other side of the command to not sin, where sin takes occasion by the commandment to not do, one does it anyways. Romans 7
Then one learns not to do it and stops, EX: drinking too much. Then Pride tries to take you for a ride and make you a "Betty better than you" (Luke 18:9-14)
Guilt and pride are not of God. God hates, guilt and pride that evil gets us into doing evil, by commanding one to not do it. Sin happened before the Commandments, and after that sin got worse, being made aware of Sin. Yet God's Grace abounds deeper, for us to leave the command alone and simply uphold it s best for you to be in it by God for you, not self flesh or anyone else's either
By God through risen Son , where the new life is at, now able to say no freely. Is Real. Yet once one sees this and chooses this truth, sin does begin to fall off of them, that had them trapped in it. Yet it take=s time, in continuance to continue to trust God, that you remain in thanksgiving and praise for the grace given. (2 Cor 12:7-10) by God forgiven and are learning new, now wiping out bad habits that developed in you prior to seeing the truth of God, (it is no longer you trying to do it, it is God in risen Son now doing it new through you. In, It is finished for you on that cross of Son. God wiped out all sin, then and there, so we can have a relationship, with you, to see what God tell's us is best for us. To become willing to do or not do. To learn it is God alive living the new you through you, only if you are willing between God and you
Thank you

Bottom line, the born again, cannot harm people anymore. Yet it does not take away the thought(s) of wanting to harm or hurt or manipulate for self gain. That is the reality y'all
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#31
Aug 10, 2019
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#31
HeIsHere said:
That I can do, but I did not see a Bible search program on you website.
Click to expand...
If you go to the home page and look at the menu on the left, you should see the section "Bible: Read Search Study" - click on 'Search'.

A new window should appear with the search utility user interface.

Uncheck the 'whole words' option on any of the 'Search Criteria' lines to make that line partial.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#32
Oct 24, 2012
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#32
HeIsHere said:
That I can do, but I did not see a Bible search program on you website.
Click to expand...
Thought in the search engine
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#33
May 21, 2022
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#33
homwardbound said:
Thought in the search engine
Click to expand...
You make it seem so easy! :cool::)
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

Well-known member
#34
May 21, 2022
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#34
GaryA said:
If you go to the home page and look at the menu on the left, you should see the section "Bible: Read Search Study" - click on 'Search'.

A new window should appear with the search utility user interface.

Uncheck the 'whole words' option on any of the 'Search Criteria' lines to make that line partial.
Click to expand...
Are you sure?

Capture22.JPG
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#35
Oct 24, 2012
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#35
HeIsHere said:
You make it seem so easy! :cool::)
Click to expand...
No, not easy, being in a body, not yet redeemed, best anyone, can do from the view given me is
Reckon self dead to the first born person daily and understand, God grace is sufficient for you as well
Romans 6, reckon to be dead
2 Cor 12:7-10, see God's grace as sufficient as God told this to Paul. It iOS not Paul nor anyone else. It ids God's done work of Son, then the new comes in the resurrected Son, given us to be sufficient in that and not under Law. Upholding Law seeing in agreement you are not capable of doing Law perfect ever.
No, it is not easy to grow up, and I only growing, I need God snd glory in my need for God, in this unredeemed body. Romans 8
Look at Jeremiah 29:11 and see that is what God says to us all, God only wants what is best for us all. problem is, we are born with the knowledge of good and bad, by that we make mistakes galore, I know I have and do and do not want to. So I see to stand in this Col 1:21-23. To focus on only what is good, as best I can. putting away the bad as soon as possible. I think it is verse 12, of Phil 3 that states, I put what is behind me, behind me and continue in the present, knowing by God through Son, I remain forgiven by God. Amazing Grace that is what has changed me and is changing me.
Phil 3:1-20
 
GaryA

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
#39
Aug 10, 2019
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#39
homwardbound said:
Thought in the search engine
Click to expand...
The numbers look correct. In which of those verses does 'thought' appear more than once? :D

(Hint: there are 5 verses in which it appears exactly twice in each verse.)
 
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