Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR
- Thread starter MerSee
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I understand your position, but it doesn't take into account the condition of man's heart. Romans 1 isn't the only passage dealing with salvation. If it were, I could go along with your assessment. But it isn't. And the Bible has much more to say about the condition of fallen man, the process of salvation, and even who God is and how He accomplishes His purposes.
I understand.
So much more indeed!
John Piper is quoted as saying, “God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimate loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue.”
Others state, " God chooses to empty Himself for the sake of worthless humanity in the ultimate act of love on Calvary. This act, when accepted by faith the condition set by God (not God performs on our behalf) brings exultation and glory to God.
Two diametrically opposed doctrines but the later is all throughout scripture.
Whatever the label, it only matters if it's Scriptural. This thread has been a discussion of this.
You believe man is good because it appears he does some good things. But God doesn't look at deeds, but upon the heart. He concerned not with actions, but the motivations behind them.
Let's use a biblical example in Isaiah 58. God, through the prophet, is telling Israel of their sin using the way of their fasting. At first it seems He is complimenting them...verse 2. They seem to seek Him, desire to know His ways, keep His ordinances, and delight to approach Him. Why then is the prophet commanded to cry out against Israel to show them their transgression?...verse 1.
God goes on to show them that their outward attendance to these matters is not what He requires. If they truly had a heart for God and understood His ways, and were keeping His ordinances, their practices would be very different. Not only would they do these things, but in doing them their focus would be God and others, and not themselves.
Anyone viewing their outward behavior would believe that they were doing good. But God looks upon the heart, and saw only evil.
So there are none that are good. Not because men can't do good things. Jesus said as much...ye being evil know how to give good gifts to your children...Matthew 7:11. Men aren't evil because they don't do good things. They are evil continually because they do so from the wrong motivation. Their hearts are evil...Jeremiah 17:9. This is why it is necessary to receive a new heart...Ezekiel 36:26. And this is what God does in salvation.
You do see a human preference here, don't you? It's the same thing addressed in Rom1 where people see no value in having God in experiential knowledge and then don't care about His judgment. Their preference is darkness and sin even though God has made certain things about Himself clear to them.
They actually are one and the same. The cross is the ultimate exaltation of God.I understand.
So much more indeed!
John Piper is quoted as saying, “God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimate loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue.”
Others state, " God chooses to empty Himself for the sake of worthless humanity in the ultimate act of love on Calvary. This act, when accepted by faith the condition set by God (not God performs on our behalf) brings exultation and glory to God.
Two diametrically opposed doctrines but the later is all throughout scripture.
Auto correct error *exaltation*
I try to keep my posts short but they are not the same, one is the God who is responsible for unbelief the other is not.
At some point the realization is that there is only One to turn to and as time goes on the realization that He was always there.
You have it backwards. God is responsible for salvation. Man is responsible for his own actions. It is only your misunderstanding of God and His ways, and the condition of man's fallen heart that lead you to believe otherwise. Take a look at post 5945.
Man can believe all kinds of lies but he cannot believe the truth.
Man has to be rendered utterly bereft of reason in order for God to magnify Himself.
This "philosphy" often appeals to people of certain personality types and there is some good work on the personality of Augustine who formulated this view.
If you are interested and have not come across it ...I can send you the link since you are a studier.
Scripture never states man cannot be persuaded by truth and has many instances where indeed people are persuaded.
Thank you. If you do provide the link, I'll take a look. I came to the point a few decades ago where I mainly study His Word and read mostly exegetical articles or books. Before I decided to have such focus I read quite a bit of the types of works you mention.
I mostly agree with your last sentence and have studied the words @notmyown is responding to you about.
I looked at it.
Not really talking about the goodness of man.
If man is incapable/totally depraved/totally unable to respond to the truth of Gospel message and scripture and God does not give the person a changed heart first/enables as you assert, as a prerequisite to salvation, then God is responsible for unbelief and I will go one step further Jesus sets up the people for failure.
And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand:
Matthew 5:10
Can you own the logical result of this interpretation?
Every person responds to the Gospel. And they do so from the heart that is present in them. Matthew 12:34...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.I looked at it.
Not really talking about the goodness of man.
If man is incapable/totally depraved/totally unable to respond to the truth of Gospel message and scripture and God does not give the person a changed heart first/enables as you assert, as a prerequisite to salvation, then God is responsible for unbelief and I will go one step further Jesus sets up the people for failure.
And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand:
Matthew 5:10
Can you own the logical result of this interpretation?
Do you understand the logical implications of this?
I don't want to assume so I will ask whether it is your evaluation of those that were deemed to be righteous within the scriptures are so-called because they became, or rather were 'made' do gooders?
It is my opinion that these were accounted as righteous because they came to agreement with scripture that their heart was evil (here I say continually, although you would say continuously). I think we view Job different in that sense also, Of all that Job said in defense of the unfairness, God rebuked him for even presuming that He knew anything about righteous judgment and the only merit ascribed to Job as righteousness is at the moment Job put his hand to his mouth and confessed his ignorance of 'things too great for me' after an entire chapter of speaking and displaying the full spectrum of his foolishness.
Correct. And since it is impossible to please God apart from faith, fallen man never pleases God. He is evil continually. That's why he requires a new heart.
Unless you've been given access to the back door, right? a door reserved only for the elect?
Fair will be reintroduced into the topic, if it hasn't recently, wait for it.
Job's diatribe was in argument for his want of it, because he presumed to think that fairness was absent because it did not result in what he judged for himself to seem 'fair.' However, "fairness' in natural terms is inherently subjective, although fairness as God judges it can be taken as objective reality.
Job's diatribe was in argument for his want of it, because he presumed to think that fairness was absent because it did not result in what he judged for himself to seem 'fair.' However, "fairness' in natural terms is inherently subjective, although fairness as God judges it can be taken as objective reality.
That's the first step in beginning the process, the beginning of wisdom, accepting your heart is sick and needs to be, not only just a mending, but an entire replacement.