Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[Cameron143]

Maybe it was just my misunderstanding from not paying close enough attention. My apology and I stand corrected if I have misquoted you.



I think you're mixing 2 different pieces of spiritual information. Romans 1 speaks of God's existence, His eternal power, His divinity. and His judgment known through Creation and conscience.

The Good News of His Son is not the same thing identified in mid to end of Romans 1 and shortly beyond.

But what I understand you to be saying is that fallen man can understand what is required of him, including the Gospel, correct?

As to your questions, re: Rom1 I think it's pretty clear that those who reject God see no value in having Him in their knowledge and this knowledge is a word that essentially means their practical - experiential - knowledge. IOW they see no value having any knowledge of God in their day-to-day life experience Rom1:28.

The interesting things to me about this in the context of all this discussion we've been having on this thread is it seems to clearly leave this choice to have God in their knowledge up to the will and desires and evaluation of men. And the reason they have no excuse for rejecting God is because God has made certain they know of His existence and of certain things about Him.

I appreciate the apology, but it's not necessary. I'm not offended or harmed in any regard.
I personally wouldn't characterize truth as spiritual or unspiritual. It's simply truth. And I believe Romans 1 makes it clear that the natural fallen man can understand truth regarding God. He can also understand the gospel. I'm not conflating the 2. I'm simply saying both are true. The gospel itself is very simple. I can explain it to any 6 year old and they can understand it. So yes, I am saying fallen man can not only understand the gospel, but also recognize the implications of it.
This is sufficient to render man responsible before God. But it is not sufficient to save him. The reason for this is that it is foolishness to him, as a number of people have pointed out. The question I posed to you is why is this the response of fallen man, and what is different for those who get saved?

 

[Cameron143]

Who in this discussion do you think is unaware of this verse?

cc: @Magenta

I think everyone is aware of it. Many, however, leave it out of the discussion.

 

[selahsays]

I understand “total depravity” but why are some of us so fascinated with it when God has always known the remedy, and indeed gave it to us?

 

[HeIsHere]

What does that even mean?
Besides, God has already by creation and through conscience, already revealed to the blind man his responsibility...Romans 1 and Ecclesiastes 3.

It means the shop owner seeks the best for his customers.

Not sure how you could even think the shop keeper is anything like God, the point of the story is that is the God of Calvinism and not the God of scripture.

 

[studier]

The question I posed to you is why is this the response of fallen man, and what is different for those who get saved?

As I pointed out re: Rom1, what's different in some is they see the value in knowing God. When someone has accepted God's existence and understands to some degree His existence, eternal power, divinity and judgment, they will have some degree of imperfect submission to Him.

I have proposed I believe within this lengthy thread that I think Jesus Christ told us very clearly what God is looking for in men in this New Covenant era. It's in John4:21-24 where Jesus repeated extensively a word normally translated as "worship" but it's more literal meaning is to bow in obeisance. God is Spirit and it is necessary for men to bow in obeisance to God in Spirit and Truth. It is these men that God is seeking. Those are Jesus' words. IMO they flow perfectly well with Rom1 and with what Biblical Faith is. Belief in and obedience to are virtually interchangeable in Romans, Hebrews, and 1John at minimum.

I can elaborate but this is the start.

BTW, thanks for clarifying what you think fallen men are still capable of understanding.

 

[HeIsHere]

I think everyone is aware of it. Many, however, leave it out of the discussion.

Probably others have mentioned but in case you are not aware.

Calvinists think that 1 Corinthians is a contrast between the abilities of the “regenerate” and the “unregenerate,” or the “natural man” versus the “spiritual man.”

In actuality, the contrast is between “human wisdom” and “divine revelation.
And the entire house of cards comes down.

 

[selahsays]

Probably others have mentioned but in case you are not aware.

Calvinists think that 1 Corinthians is a contrast between the abilities of the “regenerate” and the “unregenerate,” or the “natural man” versus the “spiritual man.”

In actuality, the contrast is between “human wisdom” and “divine revelation.
And the entire house of cards comes down.

I think the problem with the Calvinist total depravity theory is the idea that God predestined some people to hell. This is totally not true.

 

[Cameron143]

It means the shop owner seeks the best for his customers.

Not sure how you could even think the shop keeper is anything like God, the point of the story is that is the God of Calvinism and not the God of scripture.

I was giving the example in terms the poster implied, not me. And it's always the ones with CDS that can't carry on a discussion about salvation, always labeling things and unable to work through the arguments.

 

[Cameron143]

As I pointed out re: Rom1, what's different in some is they see the value in knowing God. When someone has accepted God's existence and understands to some degree His existence, eternal power, divinity and judgment, they will have some degree of imperfect submission to Him.

I have proposed I believe within this lengthy thread that I think Jesus Christ told us very clearly what God is looking for in men in this New Covenant era. It's in John4:21-24 where Jesus repeated extensively a word normally translated as "worship" but it's more literal meaning is to bow in obeisance. God is Spirit and it is necessary for men to bow in obeisance to God in Spirit and Truth. It is these men that God is seeking. Those are Jesus' words. IMO they flow perfectly well with Rom1 and with what Biblical Faith is. Belief in and obedience to are virtually interchangeable in Romans, Hebrews, and 1John at minimum.

I can elaborate but this is the start.

BTW, thanks for clarifying what you think fallen men are still capable of understanding.

And yet there are no fallen men who worship God in spirit and truth. Why is that?

 

[HeIsHere]

I was giving the example in terms the poster implied, not me. And it's always the ones with CDS that can't carry on a discussion about salvation, always labeling things and unable to work through the arguments.

Yes the good ole CDS, I have already worked through the argument several times and Paul is quite clear on the dividing line as I explained in my post, yet you did not tackle the idea I put forth.

Oh well, it is what it is, I guess I'll go back to Twitter for a bit, lots of people with CDS there too, we have all escaped.

Kinda like the movie "Escape from New York" with Kurt Russell.

Misery loves company!!

 

[selahsays]

Okay, so here’s a thought. Does the Calvinist definition of total depravity refer to both moral and spiritual depravity or just spiritual depravity (as in not desiring to seek God)?

 

[Cameron143]

Probably others have mentioned but in case you are not aware.

Calvinists think that 1 Corinthians is a contrast between the abilities of the “regenerate” and the “unregenerate,” or the “natural man” versus the “spiritual man.”

In actuality, the contrast is between “human wisdom” and “divine revelation.
And the entire house of cards comes down.

You believe the unregenerate man has been given divine revelation?

 

[selahsays]

Okay, so here’s a thought. Does the Calvinist definition of total depravity refer to both moral and spiritual depravity or just spiritual depravity (as in not desiring to seek God)?

Me? I think it’s only spiritual depravity.

 

[HeIsHere]

You believe the unregenerate man has been given divine revelation?

Let me put this way... see it if you can.....

Wrong interpretation>>>>God decreed for fallen man to be born incapable of assessing His own word (Scripture) as anything other than “foolish” and then are made to “perish” as a result.

>>>>Paul is saying it is those who rely on human wisdom instead of the spiritual truths brought by the inspired apostles and the written who will see the cross as foolish and perish as a result.

 

[Cameron143]

Let me put this way... see it if you can.....

Wrong interpretation>>>>God decreed for fallen man to be born incapable of assessing His own word (Scripture) as anything other than “foolish” and then are made to “perish” as a result.

>>>>Paul is saying it is those who rely on human wisdom instead of the spiritual truths brought by the inspired apostles and the written who will see the cross as foolish and perish as a result.

I disagree that that is what Paul is saying, but not because I don't understand your argument, but because it never deals with the real problem of fallen man. Your explanation deals only with the mind, and not the motivating force governing the mind.

 

[HeIsHere]

I disagree that that is what Paul is saying, but not because I don't understand your argument, but because it never deals with the real problem of fallen man. Your explanation deals only with the mind, and not the motivating force governing the mind.

Yes of course now why didn't Paul think of that! lol

 

[Cameron143]

Yes of course now why didn't Paul think of that! lol

He does. Like you said, he's building the argument.
And the Bible itself is written in a manner that human insight cannot unravel. It requires revelation.

 

[HeIsHere]

He does. Like you said, he's building the argument.
And the Bible itself is written in a manner that human insight cannot unravel. It requires revelation.

Ultimately like I stated before, it is not the nature of fallen man which needs to be defined but whether or not the nature of the GOSPEL, God’s inspired Word, is sufficient to enable a fallen man to respond to its appeal.

I believe it is and this is why.....otherwise God is ultimately responsible for man’s unbelief.

This is not established in scripture, it just is not.

 

[PaulThomson]

None of them did. All of them found grace in the sight of the Lord. And all were saved by grace through faith.
Simply because God has discovered to man truth gradually over time doesn't mean that the truth didn't always exist.
The NT reveals what was concealed in the OT. In the days of Enoch men began to call upon the name of the Lord. Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord. Abraham believed God. That's faith. Even with Samuel, God came to him at night. And God kept coming.

You didn't express a view on my other point.

If only parts of us are good [sometimes], taken as a whole, we are not good. If all parts of God are good [at all times], taken as a whole, He is good

Did that answer your other question?

 

[Mem]

OO let me try the shop owner story!!
Before he can read the sign that says that anyone that so much as cracks a teacup will be set on fire and left to burn to smoking ashes, the Calvinist China shop owner pulls a severely nearsighted man's glasses off and throws them into his store. Then he tells him, "So, I'm giving you no more than 2 minutes. Now, go find your glasses or you're toast! Have a good day!"