Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Inquisitor]

Not really, you do not acknowledge the power of the written word and the message of the Gospel of salvation.

God would never send a message to lost people that was insufficient for lost people to respond to!!

People perish because they refuse.
The Gospel is God's life giving truth.

BELIEVING ( belief according to ancient understanding of the concept) is the prerequisite according to the Sovereign God - He gets to decide the rules not the Reformed Doctrine.

Seems to me like the Reformed doctrine is correcting God!

I am a simple man with a simple gospel.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is the eternal promise fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Is there any other doctrine, or theology, or philosophy, that can save us?

 

[HeIsHere]

I am a simple man with a simple gospel.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart
that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

That is the eternal promise fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Is there any other doctrine, or theology, or philosophy, that can save us?

This part is correct, the part about God controlling people's minds and so they are serial killers is incorrect.

 

[Inquisitor]

Or are you playing devil's advocate, I am a little confused since I thought I remember your posts being against the tenets of Calvinism.

I have only one doctrine.

Any other understanding of the gospel other than Christ crucified,
is the work of the devil himself.

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

An error free, singular doctrine.

 

[HeIsHere]

The gospel saves? Apart from the Spirit of God? What is the power of the Gospel that saves?
Everyone responds to the Gospel. They do so based on the condition of their hearts. The heart itself is the wellspring of life. It controls every thought, every word, and every action a person has and does.
So what is the condition of the natural heart?


If you have the doctrine of man wrong, you will also get some of the doctrine of God wrong inevitably.

You believe fallen man can do things redeemed man is incapable of. Jesus told His disciples that they could do nothing apart from Him. Yet, you believe fallen man can do things that saved people can't. They can get saved apart from Jesus.

Umm.... the Gospel is truth, it is the story of Christ Jesus.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

Is the Spirit inspired and God breathed gospel that reveals the righteousness of God really the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes?

..........Or do these verses need to be changed to say “for it is the power of God for salvation only to those who God, before they hear it, regenerates them so they are able to understand the righteousness revealed in it, so they will then believe.”

So there needs there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation?

I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture.

If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers?

Or could it simply be that we all have the same Gracious Revelation ( so that no one can boast) and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is because of our own temperaments and will.

 

[Inquisitor]

This part is correct, the part about God controlling people's minds and so they are serial killers is incorrect.

Not in the theology of Total Depravity.

Your trying to propose that someone who is totally depraved. Can by
magic perform even one fruit of the Holy Spirit. The only good work
is what Christ does through you.

You must be joking.

I assume that you understand that mankind always follows a path
of evil. They are not ever righteous. There can be no fruit of the Holy
Spirit in their lives, they crucified their creator.

There is a conflict taking place in your mind.

You know what Total Depravity really means but you cannot accept it.

 

[Cameron143]

Umm.... the Gospel is truth, it is the story of Christ Jesus.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

Is the Spirit inspired and God breathed gospel that reveals the righteousness of God really the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes?

..........Or do these verses need to be changed to say “for it is the power of God for salvation only to those who God, before they hear it, regenerates them so they are able to understand the righteousness revealed in it, so they will then believe.”

So there needs there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation?

I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture.

If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers?

Or could it simply be that we all have the same Gracious Revelation ( so that no one can boast) and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is because of our own temperaments and will.

Why must a person be born again?
Maybe first, what is being born from above? What happens to a person when they are born from above? Is being born from above what happens to an individual in salvation?

 

[Cameron143]

Umm.... the Gospel is truth, it is the story of Christ Jesus.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

Is the Spirit inspired and God breathed gospel that reveals the righteousness of God really the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes?

..........Or do these verses need to be changed to say “for it is the power of God for salvation only to those who God, before they hear it, regenerates them so they are able to understand the righteousness revealed in it, so they will then believe.”

So there needs there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation?

I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture.

If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers?

Or could it simply be that we all have the same Gracious Revelation ( so that no one can boast) and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is because of our own temperaments and will.

What is the power of the Gospel?
Why is it only powerful for believers?

 

[HeIsHere]

The gospel saves? Apart from the Spirit of God? What is the power of the Gospel that saves?
Everyone responds to the Gospel. They do so based on the condition of their hearts. The heart itself is the wellspring of life. It controls every thought, every word, and every action a person has and does.
So what is the condition of the natural heart?

If you have the doctrine of man wrong, you will also get some of the doctrine of God wrong inevitably.

You believe fallen man can do things redeemed man is incapable of. Jesus told His disciples that they could do nothing apart from Him. Yet, you believe fallen man can do things that saved people can't. They can get saved apart from Jesus.

Ultimately the debate on fallen nature is only a distraction, perhaps a necessary nail to hold the system, but the God needs to change

the heart first, while innocent sounding, really sets up a salvation lottery system.

Not established in scripture and quite offensive.

 

[Inquisitor]

Umm.... the Gospel is truth, it is the story of Christ Jesus.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” -Hebrews‬ ‭4:12‬

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

Is the Spirit inspired and God breathed gospel that reveals the righteousness of God really the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes?

..........Or do these verses need to be changed to say “for it is the power of God for salvation only to those who God, before they hear it, regenerates them so they are able to understand the righteousness revealed in it, so they will then believe.”

So there needs there be some kind of extra grace that makes the grace of the gospel powerful enough to lead one to salvation?

I see no convincing evidence of this need in scripture.

If you do see it, is that because God has granted you a grace which makes you more capable of seeing truths revealed in scripture that He has kept from me and other believers?

Or could it simply be that we all have the same Gracious Revelation ( so that no one can boast) and any errors of interpretation or suppressing of its truth is because of our own temperaments and will.

Yet again.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

That is the revelation of Jesus Christ and His unconditional love for us.

What more can anyone ask for?

What extrapolation from the gospel of Jesus Christ has any real importance.

If Paul mentioned anything else and Paul had learned that by experience.

Then Paul was only fueling endless debate and conflict, by mentioning anything
other than Christ crucified.

All theology is by default a corruption of 1 Corinthians 2:2

No matter how correct any theology may sound it will ultimately
lead to debate and conflict. I will provide you with the proof.

Christian Forums in the never ending debate and conflict with
theology being the cause of all these factions in Christianity.

Theology is actually a work of the flesh, a distraction from the worship
of Jesus Christ.

 

[HeIsHere]

What is the power of the Gospel?
Why is it only powerful for believers?

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

It does not state... "to whom God grants belief"

 

[HeIsHere]

Yet again.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

That is the revelation of Jesus Christ and His unconditional love for us.

What more can anyone ask for?

What extrapolation from the gospel of Jesus Christ has any real importance.

If Paul mentioned anything else and Paul had learned that by experience.

Then Paul was only fueling endless debate and conflict, by mentioning anything
other than Christ crucified.

All theology is by default a corruption of 1 Corinthians 2:2

No matter how correct any theology may sound it will ultimately
lead to debate and conflict. I will provide you with the proof.

Christian Forums in the never ending debate and conflict with
theology being the cause of all these factions in Christianity.

Theology is actually a work of the flesh, a distraction from the worship
of Jesus Christ.

True enough, but it is no small thing to lay at God's feet something He does not own.

 

[Cameron143]

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith … Rom 1:16,17

It does not state... "to whom God grants belief"

I never said it did. Now, what is the power of the Gospel?
And I had a lot of questions about being born from above.
I also asked how is it that if believers can do nothing apart from Christ, how is it that nonbelievers can?

 

[HeIsHere]

Why must a person be born again?
Maybe first, what is being born from above? What happens to a person when they are born from above? Is being born from above what happens to an individual in salvation?

Yes, they believed in, were persuaded of the truth and placed their trust in the finished work of Christ.

Not they were not bequeathed some magic heart transformation first and then they were regenerated.
One act, one spiritual rebirth from above.

And please do not tell me Nicodemus could not understand, we are not contemporaries of Jesus putting the pieces together.
The apostles needed help we have the full revelation.

 

[HeIsHere]

I never said it did. Now, what is the power of the Gospel?
And I had a lot of questions about being born from above.
I also asked how is it that if believers can do nothing apart from Christ, how is it that nonbelievers can?

Context, context context.

What Jesus spoke to the apostles had meaning to them and where they were.
We have the full revelation.
Anyway it's been a slice, you help me believe more firmly ...but I have work to do!

 

[Cameron143]

Yes, they believed in, were persuaded of the truth and placed their trust in the finished work of Christ.

Not they were not bequeathed some magic heart transformation first and then they were regenerated.
One act, one spiritual rebirth from above.

And please do not tell me Nicodemus could not understand, we are not contemporaries of Jesus putting the pieces together.
The apostles needed help we have the full revelation.

Why don't you just stick to the questions. All the assumptions just show a bias. I realize that is often the norm here, but it's also why no one learns anything.
So if their hearts weren't transformed, what led to the change in thinking?

 

[Cameron143]

Context, context context.

What Jesus spoke to the apostles had meaning to them and where they were.
We have the full revelation.
Anyway it's been a slice, you help me believe more firmly ...but I have work to do!

No I didn't. You suppressed the truth all by yourself.

 

[HeIsHere]

So if their hearts weren't transformed, what led to the change in thinking?

Okay this is a good question

but I cannot answer now I have a midnight deadline..but if you think you would at least ponder it when I reply I will respond.

 

[HeIsHere]

No I didn't. You suppressed the truth all by yourself.

Can you elaborate?

I heard the full gospel, in probably a 3 hour discussion, all at once perfectly presented.

 

[Cameron143]

Okay this is a good question

but I cannot answer now I have a midnight deadline..but if you think you would at least ponder it when I reply I will respond.

Sure. I'm interested in people's explanations. It sure beats...context, context, context...and...we have full revelation. Those were real edge of the seat responses.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Food for thought...

There was a man named Cornelius. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly.
He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!” Cornelius stared at him in fear. “What is it, Lord?” he asked.
The angel answered, “Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. 5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a man named Simon who is called Peter.

While Peter was wondering about the meaning of the vision, the men sent by Cornelius found out where Simon’s house was and stopped at the gate. They called out, asking if Simon who was known as Peter was staying there.
Peter went down and said to the men, “I’m the one you’re looking for. Why have you come?”

22 The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.”

27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile... May I ask why you sent for me?”

....I sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has commanded you to tell us.”

34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all...38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues[b] and praising God.

Clearly these people were not so depraved that they could not receive the Gospel. The Bible says they were God fearing people. The Holy Spirit moved on their hearts so that they became saved. Clearly people can respond to the Gospel.

The coolest thing about Cornelius was he was a Gentile Proselyte. That means as a Gentile he made up his mind to follow the Law like the Jews did but Jews were born into doing it and Cornelius just made up his mind to do it. So he made a decision to be something he was not normally supposed to be. He """chose""" to follow God and the Law. And God sent an Angel to him and even said to Cornelius that his works and prayers were noticed.

And of course God sent Peter to him and he became a Christian.

But he shows us the same example as the Thief on the cross did. Just like John 3:16 reads [whosoever believes]. And as a Proselyte Gentile, Cornelius, did exactly that. He made up his mind to believe in God and follow God and God sent Peter along to help him receive the Holy Spirit.