Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I am so tempted, lol

Aww don't hold back, this is the BDF, nothing anyone says here surprises me any more. Although you could be the first. lol

 

[Magenta]

You may or not be right. The person themselves may or may not know. How many
people that you prayed with later expressed doubts about their salvation?

We are told to work out our own salvation... not that of others.

Though I cannot count the number of times it has been said here that more is required than mere mental assent.
You do keep pointing to the heart as the culprit, and that seems to get overlooked. Only God knows the heart...

 

[Cameron143]

We are told to work out our own salvation... not that of others.

Though I cannot count the number of times it has been said here that more is required than mere mental assent.
You do keep pointing to the heart as the culprit, and that seems to get overlooked. Only God knows the heart...

The heart is what is the motivating force behind all thoughts, words and actions. When evil exists in the heart, everything that proceeds forth is motivated by evil.

The use of the word evil is what people object to. It's a lot like the word hate. When God says He hated Esau, He didn't mean He had a strong disaffection for him. He merely meant He had no particular affection for him. Similarly, the use of evil doesn't mean dastardly or wicked, only that he is opposed to God and does all he does for himself and not for God. God calls this inclination of the heart evil.
All this is what I meant from the beginning as most people don't understand the condition of fallen man...on both sides of the argument.

 

[Magenta]

The first step is not a choice.

That's right. God makes the first move = God calls/draws. Do you have a problem with that?

Surely it seems you do. But then you want to believe you needed no help.

Am I to suppose you believe you circumcized your own heart as well?

 

[Magenta]

The heart is what is the motivating force behind all thoughts, words and actions. When evil exists in the heart, everything that proceeds forth is motivated by evil.

The use of the word evil is what people object to. It's a lot like the word hate. When God says He hated Esau, He didn't mean He had a strong disaffection for him. He merely meant He had no particular affection for him. Similarly, the use of evil doesn't mean dastardly or wicked, only that he is opposed to God and does all he does for himself and not for God. God calls this inclination of the heart evil.
All this is what I meant from the beginning as most people don't understand the condition of fallen man...on both sides of the argument.

I get it. I know. Knee jerk reactions. It's as if they want to believe they had something before
God gave them anything. Like, "there are none worthy, no not one" does not apply to them.
They might as well say they were born a Christian. We know there is no such thing.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Jesus' words:

14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words

16 “The one who hears you hears me, and the one who rejects you rejects me, and the one who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


Jesus said, only the Jews are deafened right now to fulfill the prophesy in Isaiah.
But we know today it's the GENTILES who are the ones hearing and rejecting.

Do you notice something about Jesus' words here?

No mention of natural man and spiritual man.

It's simply they hear, they accept, they reject.
So hearing the Gospel has no bearing to the natural man because Jesus said they will HEAR.
And then they will choose either to Accept or Reject.


This is why I say HEARING the GOSPEL and the condition of natural man cannot be linked together.
When people link it together it GOES DIRECTLY AGAINST THE WORDS OF JESUS/GOD.

 

[The_old_guy]

One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work when that is clearly unbiblical. This video does an amazing job of clearly that up. It was so good I thought it was worth sharing.

https://www.youtube.com/live/oxakEl8BYBE?feature=shared

I'm a Calvinist, and we believe that God's salvation comes to us purely by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). How is my belief unbiblical?

 

[fredoheaven]

Man has the ability in a state of depravity.

John 7:17

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Luke 6:33

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Siiners doing the same good. that's a choice. Presented with the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes, a sinner may either reject or receive the gospel truth. Paul says the Corinthians received the gospel yet he had something to say about believing in vain, meaning they can for sure reject it. This belief cannot saved because it is just an empty belief perhaps just a historical belief.


1 Corinthians 15

King James Version


15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 

[Cameron143]

I'm a Calvinist, and we believe that God's salvation comes to us purely by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). How is my belief unbiblical?

It's unbiblical because you said you were Calvinist. If you would have said you were Arminian it would have been biblical.

 

[selahsays]

It's unbiblical because you said you were Calvinist. If you would have said you were Arminian it would have been biblical.

huh? How can scripture be unbiblical?

 

[Cameron143]

huh? How can scripture be unbiblical?

Read it again and then say "ha" 3 times real fast.

 

[selahsays]

It's unbiblical because you said you were Calvinist. If you would have said you were Arminian it would have been biblical.

So you don’t believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is true no matter what?

 

[Eli1]

I'm a Calvinist, and we believe that God's salvation comes to us purely by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8,9). How is my belief unbiblical?

I'll give this a shot.

Your belief might be unbiblical because it takes away free-will in this process.
Your belief might be unbiblical because in this scenario we are puppets and this belief is no different than nihilism where nothing really matters. What we do or don't do has no meaning in Nihilism.
Your belief might be unbiblical because it promotes laziness. Why do anything at all since we are God's puppets? Why even be alive?
Your belief might be unbiblical because you're saying that you need faith to get grace? So, there is an element of free-will here or how does this work? Who or What supersedes? Grace or Faith?

I'll leave it at these points for now.

 

[selahsays]

I'll give this a shot.

Your belief might be unbiblical because it takes away free-will in this process.
Your belief might be unbiblical because in this scenario we are puppets and this belief is no different than nihilism where nothing really matters. What we do or don't do has no meaning in Nihilism.
Your belief might be unbiblical because it promotes laziness. Why do anything at all since we are God's puppets? Why even be alive?
Your belief might be unbiblical because you're saying that you need faith to get grace? So, there is an element of free-will here or how does this work? Who or What supersedes? Grace or Faith?

I'll leave it at these points for now.

…but what is the Truth? God’s Word is! What does He say?

We should never trust in traditions of man.

 

[Eli1]

…but what is the Truth? God’s Word is! What does He say?

We should never trust in traditions of man.

I agree and this is also another difficult topic because you also find yourself in a Tradition. The Protestant tradition but i'm commenting on this topic in order to see if anyone has any new comments i haven't heard before.

 

[Cameron143]

So you don’t believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is true no matter what?

It was a joke. Truth is truth from whatever source. It was meant to be absurd.

 

[Ruth96]

I think you can support both views of the atonement because of God's desire that all mankind be saved and Jesus words about His sheep knowing Him and they only know Him because the FatherJohn 6:37-40.Im still on the fence about the atonement.

 

[Inquisitor]

God decreed the greatest evil this world has ever seen in killing His own Son (Isa 53:4) at the hands of evil men to save His people from their sin (Acts 2:23, 4:28) and He was pleased to do so (Isa 53:10) and Christ rejoiced in this being done (Heb 12:2) for His greater glory but you somehow think that God is not sovereign in all things including the evil that happens for the good of the grace of His people (Rom 8:28) and the good of His wrath for the wicked.

Everyone is born a slave to sin and Satan, his evil puppet and you are much better off being a willing puppet of God out of gratitude for Hs great salvation!

I do not think that God decreed that people will sin.

I don't think that God controls the minds of serial killers.

 

[maxamir]

Your verse on this, please. Thank you

 

[maxamir]

They will be.

God does not deal with Israel as He does with us. He deals with them as a nation. They fell as a nation and they will rise as a nation.
They will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him and God will pour upon them a spirit of compassion and of supplication and the whole nation will pray. Zechariah.

Are YOU elect? can you lose your election? If God can renege on Israel He might renege on you ... not thinkable.

They are enemies of the gospel for our sakes but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the father's sake for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. It is the enemies who God calls beloved, not the remnant.

God said to Abe "look at the stars innumerable, so shall your seed"

"look at the sand of the sea shore innumerable, so shall your seed be" There you have it the heavenly seed and the earthly seed, the natural seed have promises made to them which do not belong to the church, the ends of the earth as a possession. We are the heavenly seed and heaven is our long-time home.

the only nation of Israel today is that which is made up of true born again believers of the New Covenant. All others who claim to be connected to the Israel of old and are not in Christ Jesus are the imposters which Christ warned of who are of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9) and practice Talmudic Phariseeism.