Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[HeIsHere]

Well you see it like that and I see your view as not being able to let go of the little bit of credit that you feel you deserve for making the "right choice". That glory belongs to God in TRUTH, and you just can't let go of it trying to claim it as your own. You are trying to take Gods glory the way I see it, and frankly the way the bible clearly spells it out. There is NOTHING a person can do to save themselves, we are dead in our sin, even repentance is a gift from God, the same God that MUST draw us in, salvation is by grace not a met requirement, God is sovereign, have you ever looked up what this word means? The list goes on and on, however I do also believe we clearly have choice. BIG QUESTION, who get's the credit for your choice to choose Jesus? <--- This is the point and main question, who does the glory for this CHOICE belong to? See I was blessed with a personal testimony that completely prevents me from being able to claim I was even aware of what was happening the day I was granted repentance and was born again. I KNOW for a gospel truth fact that I didn't choose a dang thing that day, so ALL glory belongs to Him and Him along. I believe this is just as true when the person is on their knees at an altar call praying to Jesus and is reborn in truth then and there. That was 0% the church house, 0% the preacher, 0% the mans decision to walk up front when called, and it was 100% God lest any one of them boast. That said God obviously used every bit of them to bring that to be. Crazy right?

That's one thing I want to make clear that I believe is the biggest point of disconnection here, I believe in choice, I just also believe in Gods sovereign power, how those two work together to bring about His perfect will is beyond my capabilities, but I feel it's important to be very clear that God gets ALL the glory for my salvation, and even the glory for the just punishment of every sinner, I don't get to be a critic of God.

The first step is not a choice.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Well you see it like that and I see your view as not being able to let go of the little bit of credit that you feel you deserve for making the "right choice". That glory belongs to God in TRUTH, and you just can't let go of it trying to claim it as your own. You are trying to take Gods glory the way I see it, and frankly the way the bible clearly spells it out. There is NOTHING a person can do to save themselves, we are dead in our sin, even repentance is a gift from God, the same God that MUST draw us in, salvation is by grace not a met requirement, God is sovereign, have you ever looked up what this word means? The list goes on and on, however I do also believe we clearly have choice. BIG QUESTION, who get's the credit for your choice to choose Jesus? <--- This is the point and main question, who does the glory for this CHOICE belong to? See I was blessed with a personal testimony that completely prevents me from being able to claim I was even aware of what was happening the day I was granted repentance and was born again. I KNOW for a gospel truth fact that I didn't choose a dang thing that day, so ALL glory belongs to Him and Him along. I believe this is just as true when the person is on their knees at an altar call praying to Jesus and is reborn in truth then and there. That was 0% the church house, 0% the preacher, 0% the mans decision to walk up front when called, and it was 100% God lest any one of them boast. That said God obviously used every bit of them to bring that to be. Crazy right?

Making the decision to walk to the alter doesn't mean a person has saved themselves. That means they have responded to the moving of the Holy Spirit in their hearts drawing them to Christ.

That's one thing I want to make clear that I believe is the biggest point of disconnection here, I believe in choice, I just also believe in Gods sovereign power, how those two work together to bring about His perfect will is beyond my capabilities, but I feel it's important to be very clear that God gets ALL the glory for my salvation, and even the glory for the just punishment of every sinner, I don't get to be a critic of God.

I literally have never heard anyone say "Yep, went to the alter last night and saved myself". That doesn't make any sense and I don't know anyone who would believe that way.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

You may or not be right. The person themselves may or may not know. How many people that you prayed with later expressed doubts about their salvation?

All new Christians have doubts, that doesn't mean they weren't saved at the altar. That means they need to grow. That's why Billy Graham had churches involved in his concerts. He understand that people need to grow in the faith, and a good Bible based church is the best way to do that.

 

[Cameron143]

I'm not denying the necessity of a changed heart nor that it is Jesus who works in creating a new heart within us. But I can't conscientiously deny that no one can will to have a new heart even without the power to perform it.

I've never suggested differently...only that man's intentions are evil continually even though this is not always apparent in their actions, and will remain so until God changes their hearts.

 

[Cameron143]

All new Christians have doubts, that doesn't mean they weren't saved at the altar. That means they need to grow. That's why Billy Graham had churches involved in his concerts. He understand that people need to grow in the faith, and a good Bible based church is the best way to do that.

I agree churches should be involved. And I agree some doubt doesn't negate salvation, but neither does it confirm it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I agree churches should be involved. And I agree some doubt doesn't negate salvation, but neither does it confirm it.

That's why as their brothers and sisters we need to come along side them and encourage them in their growth. Back in the day they use to have meetings in people homes where they could study the Bible and ask questions and grow. It could easily be done these days with phones and computers.

 

[Cameron143]

That's why as their brothers and sisters we need to come along side them and encourage them in their growth. Back in the day they use to have meetings in people homes where they could study the Bible and ask questions and grow. It could easily be done these days with phones and computers.

Sure. My only point was that not everyone who answers an altar call and says a sinner's prayer is saved.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Sure. My only point was that not everyone who answers an altar call and says a sinner's prayer is saved.

If done with a sincere heart, they are saved. But my point is they were able to respond to salvation. And in doing so, does not in any way mean they saved themselves.

 

[Cameron143]

If done with a sincere heart, they are saved. But my point is they were able to respond to salvation. And in doing so, does not in any way mean they saved themselves.

No one can save themselves. But was speaking one day and told a group listening that they being evil knew how to give good gifts to their children. The people were obviously not saved, but still had the capacity to do good things. So what made them still evil?

 

[HeIsHere]

If done with a sincere heart, they are saved. But my point is they were able to respond to salvation. And in doing so, does not in any way mean they saved themselves.

In this doctrine a sincere heart has be given by God first.
So they will agree the heart is sincere but not in the way you think of it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

No one can save themselves. But was speaking one day and told a group listening that they being evil knew how to give good gifts to their children. The people were obviously not saved, but still had the capacity to do good things. So what made them still evil?

But this issue isn't are they sinners? The issue is that they are able to respond to the Holy Spirits call. Yes, they are. And that doesn't mean they saved themselves. See what I'm getting at?

 

[selahsays]

The first step is not a choice.

I gotta agree. The first step is Grace. …because it was our Lord Jesus who went to that Cross. It was God’s grace. Then comes the acceptance or rejection from each and every one of us.

 

[HeIsHere]

I gotta agree. The first step is Grace. …because it was our Lord Jesus who went to that Cross. It was God’s grace. Then comes the acceptance or rejection from each and every one of us.

Yes, Grace is a big word and yes, going to the cross was indeed an act of grace.
So no one is refuting the need for grace.

 

[selahsays]

No one can save themselves. But was speaking one day and told a group listening that they being evil knew how to give good gifts to their children. The people were obviously not saved, but still had the capacity to do good things. So what made them still evil?

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

- Romans 7:18-25 (KJV)

 

[HeIsHere]

But this issue isn't are they sinners? The issue is that they are able to respond to the Holy Spirits call. Yes, they are. And that doesn't mean they saved themselves. See what I'm getting at?

I am so tempted, lol

 

[selahsays]

Yes, Grace is a big word and yes, going to the cross was indeed an act of grace.
So no one is refuting the need for grace.

My point is that no one can save themselves.

 

[Cameron143]

But this issue isn't are they sinners? The issue is that they are able to respond to the Holy Spirits call. Yes, they are. And that doesn't mean they saved themselves. See what I'm getting at?

We are all sinners. We aren't all called evil. Evil is a condition of the heart.
Yes, all can respond. They do so out of the condition of their hearts. One will produce a harvest while the other will not. It depends upon what type of soil the seed falls on.

 

[HeIsHere]

My point is that no one can save themselves.

Yes agreeing I was just adding to your thoughts.

 

[HeIsHere]

We are all sinners. We aren't all called evil. Evil is a condition of the heart.
Yes, all can respond. They do so out of the condition of their hearts. One will produce a harvest while the other will not. It depends upon what type of soil the seed falls on.

Again you are presupposing that the condition of the heart (evil) as meaning moral incapacity, this is never established in scripture

 

[Cameron143]

Again you are presupposing that the condition of the heart (evil) as meaning moral incapacity, this is never established in scripture

Genesis 6:5...evil in the heart.
Matthew 12:34...out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.