Speak Your Mind.
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Of course I have. I might've forgotten or overlooked some of the smaller details, but I've read it. However...
I'm glad I've decided to post my question here, and not as a thread on its own, because I want to talk a little more about baptism. From what I can remember, I don't think there was a single person in Christ's ministry that wasn't baptized. In fact, Christ himself went out of his way to get baptized before he even started his ministry. Now whether you need to be baptized to become a Christian might still be up for debate, depending on the person's view of what a Christian is. But something tells me there's something important about this baptism thing that most Christians might be overlooking, because from a Biblical perspective, it appears one needed to be baptized in order to be considered a Christian in the original churches.
But, I'm always up for correction if I'm wrong.
Water baptism is not and never has been required to become a Christian. Scripture is very clear about that.
And, once again, I must explain the reason for water baptism. Water baptism serves as a "witness" to the world and the Church that a person has become a believer in and follower of Jesus. It is considered the first act of obedience to Jesus. Jesus was water baptized to serve as a witness to the world and Church how one should be. Just as Communion is symbolic of the death and rebirth of Jesus, water baptism is symbolic of the "Spiritual baptism" of the Holy Spirit which is invisible to the eyes of man.
Water baptism can not provide salvation to anyone. ONLY the precious blood of Jesus can cleanse us of our sins and make us worthy to be called the children of God.
N
NEWTOCHRISTIANITY
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Challenge accepted. But let's attempt to put some pieces together first, shall we? Since this is the baptism of Christ we're talking about, it's only natural that we start off at... well, Christ's baptism.
KJV Matthew 13-17
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Like I said before, Christ didn't start his ministry until he started his baptism. I'll come back to this point in a bit, but before that, I want to point out what Christ said at the end of Mark
KJV Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
This within itself brings a whole new meaning to being "saved", doesn't it? But that's another topic for another day. Anyway, before I get to my next point:
KJV 1 Peter 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
KJV 1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
Can we both agree that the disciples followed Jesus' example? I don't think they'd teach a doctrine that they themselves aren't following. With that being said... what was the first thing Peter said to the people at Pentecost when they came to the realization that they crucified their messiah?
KJV 2:37-38
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Which brings me full circle to my first point: Jesus was baptized before he started his ministry. So I don't know why the Apostles would be baptizing people if they themselves weren't baptized.
So were the apostles baptized? Beats me. There is no scripture specifically talking about them being baptized. But there are no scriptures saying they weren't baptized either. So if you ask me, there's more evidence supporting the former being more probable than the latter. So yes, I think we can safely conclude all Christians were baptized back then.
I made my move. Now it's your turn.
You, as do many others, confuse water baptism with the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the "one baptism" spoken of in Scripture.
Put it this way:
Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin...
Are you being baptized for the forgiveness of sin, OR, are you being baptized because when you REPENTED your sins were forgiven?
Simple explanation:
Repent and jump for joy for the forgiveness of sin.
Are you jumping for joy to have your sins forgiven, OR, are you jumping for joy because when your sins were forgiven when you REPENTED?
One must properly read and understand Scripture to fully ingest it's meaning,
There is only ONE thing that can cleanse any person of their sins and that is the precious blood of Jesus, NOTHING
Ephesians, Chapter 4
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Corinthians, Chapter 12:
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Corinthians, Chapter 12:
13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Yes, I also believe they were baptized. However, Scripture does not state such.
Water baptism is ONLY an act of obedience, and as I stated earlier, serves as a witness to the world and the Church that a person has become a believer in and follower of Jesus. Water baptism IS NOT required for one to be considered a Christian. Thousands or more people have repented and asked Jesus into their lives who were never water baptized. Battlefield deaths are one example. People in Hospice Care who repent and ask Jesus into their lives who were never water baptized. People in Emergence Rooms on their death bed who do the same and were never water baptized. There are a plethora of examples one can think of where a person repents and their sins are forgiven because when they repented, they were baptized by the Holy Spirit with the blood of Jesus.
ALL of these people become saved and worthy of being called a child of God and heirs to the promise, and, yes, they become a member of the Christian Church, thus they are CHRISTIANS! Water baptism can not and never will cleanse one of their sins. If that were true, then salvation would be achieved through "works." That is fully against the
Gospel of Jesus, and all of the Epistles of the Apostle Paul.
Anyhoo...............one must seek to achieve the "spiritual" understanding of Scripture, or they will only ever achieve the "earthly" understanding. And this is where so very many Denominations go wrong in their teachings.
Sanctification is required to achieve spiritual understanding because it is the Holy Spirit who provides us with such understanding.
God bless and I hope you reach the point where the Holy Spirit indwells with you and reveals to you such understanding.
ater baptism is ONLY an act of obedience, and as I stated earlier, serves as a witness to the world and the Church that a person has become a believer in and follower of Jesus.
What is anything God told someone to do ? An act of obedience right ? Or in other words an act of faith believing like this
“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. ……And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
Acts 2:38-41, 47 KJV
peter seems to be saying baptism in Jesus name is about repentance and remission of sins
“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
Luke 24:46-48 KJV
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, ( Christian’s ) baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:18-20
To say baptism is an act of obedience is correct it’s an act of faith like when Noah was told how to build the ark and obeyed
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7
imagine if Noah said “ building the ark is just an act of obedience it has nothing to do with being saved from the flood “ it’s the actions of obedience we want to pursue Christian’s are disciples of Jesus
Yes faith prompts obedience. If one did not believe, why obey? That's the reason the world pays little or no attention to the Gospel of Jesus. They do not believe, so they don't even consider obeying.
However, water baptism does not cleanse anyone of their sins. IMO, any who teach it does is teaching another gospel than the Gospel of Jesus. For the Gospel of Jesus is clear that His precious blood on Calvary's cross is the ONLY thing that can cleanse us of our sins,
Ephesians, Chapter 1
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
However, water baptism does not cleanse anyone of their sins. IMO, any who teach it does is teaching another gospel than the Gospel of Jesus. For the Gospel of Jesus is clear that His precious blood on Calvary's cross is the ONLY thing that can cleanse us of our sins,
Ephesians, Chapter 1
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Baptism = Jump for joy? Yeah... that doesn't sit well with me.... But other than that, you sure have a way with words, I'll give you that. You even sound like a genuinely concerned Christian. I just hope you're someone who's actually seeking truth, and not just some feel-good doctrine. I don't want to stay on this "back and forth" thing any longer than you do. However, I will end things off with this:
KJV Romans :3-5
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Does this sound like "jumping for joy"? Does it sound like "being happy for the forgiveness of our sins"? I will agree that we might jump for joy and be happy for the forgiveness of our sins... especially after being baptized. But to me, it sounds more like the traditional water baptism. Being put in the water represents the death of Christ (which is why it's important to be completely submerged during baptism), while coming out of the water represents his resurrection. I don't know how how you came up with water baptism being "ONLY an act of obedience" (Though, obedience within itself should give one more than enough reason to WANT water baptism).
BUT!
I'm a believer of grace. I'm pretty sure there are people who were saved simply because they either didn't know any better, or because they ended up in a situation where they couldn't possibly be water baptized. The thief on the cross is a perfect example of that. But those are VERY situational moments. If you're alive, well, and within a short distance away of a righteous church, then there's literally no excuse for denying water baptism.
OH WAIT!
There's ONE more thing I want to point out on the subject of baptism!
KJV John 3:22-26
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
I don't want to dwell on this too long because I have to catch some Zs, but I thought I'd point out how upset John's followers were of Jesus' baptisms. They must've been doing water baptism.
There's ONE more thing I want to point out on the subject of baptism!
KJV John 3:22-26
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
I don't want to dwell on this too long because I have to catch some Zs, but I thought I'd point out how upset John's followers were of Jesus' baptisms. They must've been doing water baptism.
My bad... I was tired and wanted to make a quick point before I went to bed. You're right. Jesus himself didn't water baptize anyone. But he his disciples did.
But the main point is, water baptism was (and in some churches, still is) a vital part of the ministry, if not top priority. Yes, baptism does lead to a spiritual change, but it's not all spiritual like some say it is.You can't make a change spiritually without taking steps in the physical realm first. Otherwise, what's the point in the gospel if people aren't going to make changes in their life?
But I think I'll rest my case on this discussion. For real, this time.
No, he is saying repenting is for the forgiveness of sin. Water baptism is symbolic of the Holy Spirit baptism which takes place after repenting. Dying with Jesus and being resurrected with Jesus. Going under the water symbolic of going into the grave, and coming up again symbolic of Jesus's resurrection. (see my example of how this passage is misunderstood above)
Mayhaps it doesn't sit well because it reveals how people misinterpret the Scripture? Without repentance there IS NO forgiveness of sin!
The Scriptures in Romans you posted are correctly revealing the "symbolic" nature of water baptism. Being buried with Jesus and being resurrected with Him. Going under the water and coming up again. His death/burial and His resurrection. If you honestly believe that water is more powerful than the blood of Jesus and the Holy Spirit baptism, you are in for a rude awakening one day.
You still do not understand the process this Scripture describes. I am left to wonder if you are a sanctified believer? Have you received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit? You do not think jumping for joy is a proper response to one having their sins forgiven and being born anew into the Church? Water baptism can not and will not achieve any of this. It is symbolic!!!!!!!!!
FIRST: I have never said it was "ONLY" an act of obedience. I said it was considered the first act of obedience a new believer should perform.
Now, you need to make up your mind. Is water baptism required for the forgiveness of sin?
YES
NO
Your statement above reveals that water baptism IS NOT required, yet you continue to try and prove it is. Why?
I also have never suggested one should "deny water baptism." Post correctly what I say please. Do not try and lessen my comments by falsely stating what I have said. I have ALWAYS said a new believer should be water baptized because Jesus said for us to.
You, as many others replace the blood of Jesus with water in the cleansing of sin and the resulting rebirth/salvation of a new believer.
If you are speaking of the Disciples water baptising people, yes they did. The did so because Jesus said for them to. Goodness........ it's like banging one's head against a brick wall....
Water baptism IS A WITNESS to the world and the Church that a person has become a believer in and follower of Jesus. That is the symbolic reason for it. That is why Jesus was water baptized. To give us an example to follow. WHY? Because the Holy Spirit baptism CAN NOT BE SEEN BY THE EYES OF MEN! It is a spiritual event!!!!
Ok, I'm through with this nonsense. You believe as you wish, after all, you have free will to do so. However, the day is coming when your eyes and heart will be opened to the Truth.
Go in peace
Okay, these next two posts are just a correction of my one previous post, due to my slight incompetence on properly posting on this forum. If a moderator happens to be reading this, can you delete my previous post?
Perhaps I should make a few things clear.
I never belittled the importance of repentance. That's just as important as the water baptism.
I never said water was more powerful than the blood of Jesus. But I am saying that the water baptism and the Holy Spirit baptism are pretty much the same thing.
Are you sure about that?
Sorry, that post threw me off a bit... but I'm assuming you were referring to this:
Let's try to stay consistent here. Speaking of consistent...
I'm guessing you missed the "VERY situational" part... even though I'm pretty sure I emphasized on it. Can a disabled person just simply walk up to a church and ask to be baptized? Can a person who's stuck in prison for life simply walk out to get baptized in a church (I'm assuming the answer is "no", but who knows)? Can a person being crucified come off the cross and get baptized before they die? No. But what if they wanted to get baptized, or made an effortful attempt to get baptized, but weren't able to before their time came? In those situation, grace might cover them and allow them to enter God's kingdom. But as you said, water baptism is the first act of obedience. If a person isn't willing to follow Jesus' first order of business, then all I can say to them is-
Yeah... what you said. Anyway, the short answer is "yes".
Perhaps I should make a few things clear.
I never belittled the importance of repentance. That's just as important as the water baptism.
I never said water was more powerful than the blood of Jesus. But I am saying that the water baptism and the Holy Spirit baptism are pretty much the same thing.
Are you sure about that?
Sorry, that post threw me off a bit... but I'm assuming you were referring to this:
Let's try to stay consistent here. Speaking of consistent...
I'm guessing you missed the "VERY situational" part... even though I'm pretty sure I emphasized on it. Can a disabled person just simply walk up to a church and ask to be baptized? Can a person who's stuck in prison for life simply walk out to get baptized in a church (I'm assuming the answer is "no", but who knows)? Can a person being crucified come off the cross and get baptized before they die? No. But what if they wanted to get baptized, or made an effortful attempt to get baptized, but weren't able to before their time came? In those situation, grace might cover them and allow them to enter God's kingdom. But as you said, water baptism is the first act of obedience. If a person isn't willing to follow Jesus' first order of business, then all I can say to them is-
Yeah... what you said. Anyway, the short answer is "yes".
Now this is a fault I will rightfully accept. My apologies, I thought you were one of those people who tried to belittle the importance of baptism. But...
Two wrongs don't make a right. I never used water baptism as a replacement for Jesus' blood. Don't get me wrong. I do believe one needs to be baptized in order to be saved. But baptism on its own will NOT save anyone. If that's the interpretation you got from reading my posts, then you couldn't be more wrong. All I'm trying to convey here is water baptism is more important than most people might think. NOT "You're automatically saved if you get water baptized".
Let's try to keep a level head through this... longsuffering is one of the Fruits of the Spirit.
Good idea. If our hearts, minds, and spirits are in the right place, God will eventually reveal the truth to us, and then we truly will be of one mind.
Until next time, shalom.