Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"
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I can't adequately come to the conclusion that God's sovereignty is compromised in providing for free will. No one is worthy to be saved but the only limitation (sovereignly decreed by God) in hindrance to salvation is to those that will not. And I can't seem to make the leap that some will not only because God will not. I guess that would render me an 'unbeliever' if that is indeed the case, but my opinion of remains that of 'faithful', in that God does will all men to change their minds and come to the knowledge of Christ, their salvation. That is, God pleases that all sinners be saved, and not all sinner be saved, period, but all sinners ('possible) be saved by Christ's atonement through faith so that is what God does. As nothing is impossible, qualified that thing is "with God" (noting the nuanced descriptive "with" as opposed to "by"), which inherently implies a thing without God is impossible.
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I am of the mind that free will does not exist and is nowhere presented in the Bible in the way people use the words. Many erroneously conflate the ability to make choices with having fee will. The natural man is a slave to sin, born an enemy of God, hostile in his mind toward Him, unable to choose/love God until God draws/enables him through heart circumcision. Sinners suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they love their sin. They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. They hear the gospel message as foolishness, for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! He draws us with loving kindness. We love because He loved us first. That is what the Bible has to say on the matter... .
Isaiah 46:10
Isaiah 46:10
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I am of the mind that free will does not exist and is nowhere presented in the Bible in the way people use the words. Many erroneously conflate the ability to make choices with having fee will. The natural man is a slave to sin, born an enemy of God, hostile in his mind toward Him, unable to choose/love God until God draws/enables him through heart circumcision. Sinners suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they love their sin. They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. They hear the gospel message as foolishness, for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! He draws us with loving kindness. We love because He loved us first. That is what the Bible has to say on the matter... .
Isaiah 46:10
Isaiah 46:10
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The phenomena is the natural man in need of a Spiritual rebirth. The real conundrum for me is the fact that man is a slave to sin due his fear of death. Was this true for Adam and Eve as well? They had a relationship with God but there is nothing in the text to suggest they were spiritually alive as one becomes when they partake of the Tree of Life/waters of life that Jesus offers, He being the true vine. They were of the natural world. Some also believe they had already eaten of the Tree of Life, and even that they would have had to in order to simply be alive, as if God's breath was not enough to sustain them as He sustains all life including those who are His enemies. Many claim the lie the serpent told was that they would be as God in knowing good and evil if they ate from the forbidden tree, but that was not the lie, for God agreed with that assessment following their disobedience. The lie was that they surely would not die, and we know that this lie is told to this very day. So the conundrum is, if they feared death, why not just eat from the Tree of Life? Surely there is more to it, which is alluded to in the verses that talk of the pride of life and lust of the flesh. For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh, the desires of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not from the Father but from the world. "When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eyes, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom, she took the fruit and ate it. She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it."
Genesis 2:17
Genesis 2:17
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I am of the mind that free will does not exist and is nowhere presented in the Bible in the way people use the words. Many erroneously conflate the ability to make choices with having fee will. The natural man is a slave to sin, born an enemy of God, hostile in his mind toward Him, unable to choose/love God until God draws/enables him through heart circumcision. Sinners suppress the truth in unrighteousness because they love their sin. They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. They hear the gospel message as foolishness, for the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! He draws us with loving kindness. We love because He loved us first. That is what the Bible has to say on the matter... .
Isaiah 46:10
Isaiah 46:10
But there is no nutrition in stones. You need to eat bread.
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it's pretty awful
we have to remember that Calvin was very much a 17th century European. Folks did think differently than they do today.
Arminius thought exactly the same thing.
He also interpreted Predestination and Election to mean that God chose some to be saved and some to be damned, what he did was worse than Calvin, he [to all intents and purposes] took the glorious doctrines of Predestination and Election out of the bible. He invented the doctrine of human freewill. More people are damned under Arminianism than under Calvin.
All that is needed is to apply the doctrines to where it belongs, not to salvation but to discipleship, to sonship. Suddenly a much, much WIDER MERCY hoves into view.
we have to remember that Calvin was very much a 17th century European. Folks did think differently than they do today.
Arminius thought exactly the same thing.
He also interpreted Predestination and Election to mean that God chose some to be saved and some to be damned, what he did was worse than Calvin, he [to all intents and purposes] took the glorious doctrines of Predestination and Election out of the bible. He invented the doctrine of human freewill. More people are damned under Arminianism than under Calvin.
All that is needed is to apply the doctrines to where it belongs, not to salvation but to discipleship, to sonship. Suddenly a much, much WIDER MERCY hoves into view.
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It is no small thing to distort God's plan of salvation and assault the character of God in the process.
Faith is the instrumental means through which one is raised to new life, it precedes new life.
Colossians 2:12
...having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
2 Chronicles 7:14
....if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Metanioia/humility pleases God, and no He does not bequeath humility, and yes people can and do hear the Gospel and can be persuaded by the truth in the message, that is why we preach the Gospel.
God gives more light to those who come in agreement with Him about His plan of salvation so it is essential to get it right.
Faith is the instrumental means through which one is raised to new life, it precedes new life.
Colossians 2:12
...having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
2 Chronicles 7:14
....if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
Metanioia/humility pleases God, and no He does not bequeath humility, and yes people can and do hear the Gospel and can be persuaded by the truth in the message, that is why we preach the Gospel.
God gives more light to those who come in agreement with Him about His plan of salvation so it is essential to get it right.
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I have read the testimonies of people who escape this doctrine, it really is a kryptonite to the soul and spirit.
It is not possible to worship God in spirit and truth if one does not have an accurate understanding of His character, the true God who desires all would humble themselves, change their mind away from death towards Life.
The Gospel message has the power to do just that, to deny the power of the Gospel message seems heretical to me.
It is such a simplistic view to say no one can respond period, in reality some do respond and some for reasons only God knows will not.
I was told by a fellow on CC a while back that there are people paid by the "reform movement" to go on discussion boards in hopes of making converts to the doctrine.
One has to wonder if it is true.
It is not possible to worship God in spirit and truth if one does not have an accurate understanding of His character, the true God who desires all would humble themselves, change their mind away from death towards Life.
The Gospel message has the power to do just that, to deny the power of the Gospel message seems heretical to me.
It is such a simplistic view to say no one can respond period, in reality some do respond and some for reasons only God knows will not.
I was told by a fellow on CC a while back that there are people paid by the "reform movement" to go on discussion boards in hopes of making converts to the doctrine.
One has to wonder if it is true.
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If your plan of salvation does not account adequately and accurately for the fallen condition of man, you have already distorted the grace of God.
Your caution is good and warranted, but your understanding of the condition of man is simply wrong. Man's faculties weren't removed after sin, but they were corrupted. So they still function, but not as they were originally designed. The only way to correct the problem is for God to restore to man his former capacities. When and where He does, men flock to Him.
Many believe God is obligated to do this. He is not.
Your caution is good and warranted, but your understanding of the condition of man is simply wrong. Man's faculties weren't removed after sin, but they were corrupted. So they still function, but not as they were originally designed. The only way to correct the problem is for God to restore to man his former capacities. When and where He does, men flock to Him.
Many believe God is obligated to do this. He is not.
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So every convert, being restored, now feels and thinks and behaves the same way unfallen Adam did?
And again......was permission for this restoration asked for and then granted? Or was God hogtying their will and carting them off to the marriage whether they like it or not?
Or was it more like somebody was kidnapped and added to the Borg collective?
Anyways......good luck selling that idea.
And again......was permission for this restoration asked for and then granted? Or was God hogtying their will and carting them off to the marriage whether they like it or not?
Or was it more like somebody was kidnapped and added to the Borg collective?
Anyways......good luck selling that idea.
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The argument is not whether a man can fix himself, that would negate the need for a Saviour, it is the presupposition that a person must be fixed in order to respond to the message of the Gospel.
Believe as you will, but this doctrine does not elevate God by making humans incapable of responding to the Gospel it does the opposite.
Believe as you will, but this doctrine does not elevate God by making humans incapable of responding to the Gospel it does the opposite.
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I never said that fallen man cannot respond to God, the Gospel, his surroundings, or any other stimuli. But he can only respond according to his nature. I can present the gospel to a child in a way they will understand their sinful condition and need of a Savior. What I can't do is circumcise their heart. I can plant and water, but cannot produce an increase. And neither can the child. Only the Spirit can engage the heart. It is not of him that runs or wills, but of God. The Spirit blows where He will.
The church is full of many who remain unconverted. A well-meaning and charismatic man has preached perhaps an emotional and convincing message and the minds of the hearers are convinced of their helpless estate before God and their need of salvation. And they may even come forward and pray. But apart from a work of the Spirit, they remain unconverted.
The church is full of many who remain unconverted. A well-meaning and charismatic man has preached perhaps an emotional and convincing message and the minds of the hearers are convinced of their helpless estate before God and their need of salvation. And they may even come forward and pray. But apart from a work of the Spirit, they remain unconverted.
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