Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Cameron143]

But you say NONE can, as all Jews are born natural men, born condemned.

No natural men. There were plenty of OT saints who believed on a future Messiah and were saved. Salvation hasn't changed. Just more understanding of it has been imparted over time.

 

[Cameron143]

No idea of when you say? In these latter days? NOT watching are you? Very very foolish indeed.
Not only foolish, an outright failure to heed God's command.

Mat 24:48
“But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,
Mat 24:50
“the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,


Mar 13:35
“Watch therefore, for you do not know when the master of the house is coming—in the evening, at midnight, at the crowing of the rooster, or in the morning—

Mat 25:13
“Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.

1Th 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
1Th 5:6
Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Rev 3:3
“Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Rev 22:7
“Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
Rev 22:12
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
Rev 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming quickly.” Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!

The latter days spoken of there was the latter days of the old covenant. Because you don't understand that, the rest of what you shared is in error.

 

[cv5]

They didn't keep the law. If they had they wouldn't have gotten into so much trouble.

How about BEFORE the law? Everybody was natural, hopelessly wicked and depraved?

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

 

[cv5]

The latter days spoken of there was the latter days of the old covenant. Because you don't understand that, the rest of what you shared is in error.

Thats your excuse for denying the command (and warning) to watch for His coming?
Suit yourself man. Its your funeral.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Natural man can use all the same faculties he possessed before the fall. But he can't use them in the same ways. Hence, the need to have them redeemed.

He was unredeemed under the Law and still followed God.

 

[cv5]

There were plenty of OT saints who believed on a future Messiah

Believed how? After God did the heart surgery before they were ever born?
Believed when? A split second before the shotgun wedding?

 

[cv5]

Natural man can use all the same faculties he possessed before the fall. But he can't use them in the same ways. Hence, the need to have them redeemed.

So natural man faculties did not exist before the fall? Or were they far greater before and much lesser afterward?
Or were they much lesser before and much greater afterward?

 

[Cameron143]

How about BEFORE the law? Everybody was natural, hopelessly wicked and depraved?

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Job 1:8
Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

Nope. God has been redeeming people since right after sin. He redeemed Adam and Eve almost immediately.
Those who did conform to the law and were righteous were not righteous in themselves. They possessed the righteousness of Christ. No flesh is ever righteous.

 

[Cameron143]

So natural man faculties did not exist before the fall? Or were they far greater before and much lesser afterward?
Or were they much lesser before and much greater afterward?

I'm going to bid you a nice evening. You aren't even paying attention. Grace and peace.

 

[cv5]

Those who did conform to the law

But you say (vehemently, over and over again) that the natural man can NEVER conform to the law.

So how did Job pull himself up by his bootstraps to become righteous and blameless?

 

[cv5]

I'm going to bid you a nice evening. You aren't even paying attention. Grace and peace.

I will be watching for the return of the Lord, while you are sleeping buddy. Hope that I can PM you before its too late.

 

[Cameron143]

He was unredeemed under the Law and still followed God.

No he didn't. He followed his own way. God was always on Israel for their practices of religion. They did as they pleased as a whole. God was always calling them back to Himself and correct their religious practices. They drew near to God with their lips, but their HEARTS were far from Him.

 

[Cameron143]

But you say (vehemently, over and over again) that the natural man can NEVER conform to the law.

So how did Job pull himself up by his bootstraps to become righteous and blameless?

He didn't. God saved him, gave him a new heart, and conformed him to the image of Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

I will be watching for the return of the Lord, while you are sleeping buddy. Hope that I can PM you before its too late.

No need. God is my Watchman.

 

[Cameron143]

But you say (vehemently, over and over again) that the natural man can NEVER conform to the law.

So how did Job pull himself up by his bootstraps to become righteous and blameless?

This is incredible. Do you actually believe Job made himself righteous?

 

[cv5]

This is incredible. Do you actually believe Job made himself righteous?

You say that the natural man is utterly incapable of law-keeping or the slightest act of obedience, are all deaf and hostile toward God, so I am wondering how you say he was saved unlike the other natural men out there.

 

[cv5]

He didn't. God saved him, gave him a new heart, and conformed him to the image of Christ.

Before he was born or before the shotgun wedding?

 

[Cameron143]

You say that the natural man is utterly incapable of law-keeping or the slightest act of obedience, are all deaf and hostile toward God, so I am wondering how you say he was saved unlike the other natural men out there.

Like I said earlier, you aren't paying attention. Grace and peace.

 

[cv5]

Like I said earlier, you aren't paying attention. Grace and peace.

Oh I am paying attention alright. But I am disputing your absurd doctrine.

Ultimately, the question that needs to be asked is whether Omniscient God (Who knows the end from the beginning, created time, and is outside of time) created Satan such that he would inevitably fall, become evil, to be condemned to the lake of fire. And neither Satan nor any creature so judged has any say in the matter whatsoever. Same goes for the saved/redeemed.

 

[cv5]

No need. God is my Watchman.

Who needs a watchman if Jesus is not returning for the foreseeable future, if ever?