Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[Cameron143]

No. The Holy Spirit walks away (as He sees fit) from His action/efforts in pleading to the hearts of individuals who refuse to repent and who reject the gospel.

These cities had every opportunity (and reason) to repent. They refused. An act of their own free will.

Luk 10:13
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Then comes the inevitable judgement.

Luk 10:14
But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Both groups respond of their own volition. One responds as a natural man, and the other out of a heart that has been circumcised.

 

[cv5]

I believe you are missing the point. When the gospel is preached, it either finds fertile or unfertile ground. In Acts 2, the hearts were pricked. The Spirit had prepared the ground. In Acts 7, no such action took place. The hearts are not said to be pricked, but severed. It's important what kind of soil the seed falls on.
Since it is the Spirit of God who alone can change a heart, when He is absent, the gospel will not be received.

And there it is.

An argument where ultimately God takes the blame for unbelief, hardened hearts and condemnation, making God out to be unjust and evil, and the origin of evil.

Which is the primordial accusation of Satan. The other being that God does not create true free will in His creatures. Another lie.

Satan busies himself in heaven day in and day out falsely accusing God and the Saints falsely.

Until this point in time......

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The misunderstanding of this following passage is EXTREMELY commonplace.
What is going on here is REJOICING in heaven now that Satan is finally gone and not CAUSING CHAOS and anguish....in heaven!
Furthermore, that VERY SOON (not right at that moment!) the kingdom of God is SOON COMING.

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

 

[cv5]

Both groups respond of their own volition. One responds as a natural man, and the other out of a heart that has been circumcised.

What you actually mean is PRE-CIRCUMCISED. Before they were born and OUTSIDE the scope of their free will.
In other words, saved whether they like it or not. Before any free-will decision on the part of the hearer is ever made.

Standard hyper-Calvinist heresy with a candy coating.

 

[Cameron143]

And there it is.

An argument where ultimately God takes the blame for unbelief, hardened hearts and condemnation, making God out to be unjust and evil, and the origin of evil.

Which is the primordial accusation of Satan. The other being that God does not create true free will in His creatures. Another lie.

Satan busies himself in heaven day in and day out falsely accusing God and the Saints falsely.

Until this point in time......

Rev 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The misunderstanding of this following passage is EXTREMELY commonplace.
What is going on here is REJOICING in heaven now that Satan is finally gone and not CAUSING CHAOS and anguish....in heaven!
Furthermore, that VERY SOON (not right at that moment!) the kingdom of God is SOON COMING.

Rev 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

God isn't responsible for the choices of men. You know what Romans 1 says. Men make their own choices, but men's choices are limited to their nature.
But you knew this, but wanted to disparage rather than admit what I just shared.

 

[Cameron143]

What you actually mean is PRE-CIRCUMCISED. Before they were born and OUTSIDE the scope of their free will.
In other words, saved whether they like it or not. Before any free-will decision on the part of the hearer is ever made.

Standard hyper-Calvinist heresy with a candy coating.

Again, a false characterization. A changed heart doesn't resist God. The new nature gravitates towards God, not away. Far from being dragged kicking and screaming, they run to God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

I believe you are missing the point. When the gospel is preached, it either finds fertile or unfertile ground. In Acts 2, the hearts were pricked. The Spirit had prepared the ground. In Acts 7, no such action took place. The hearts are not said to be pricked, but severed. It's important what kind of soil the seed falls on.
Since it is the Spirit of God who alone can change a heart, when He is absent, the gospel will not be received.

And there's NO verses to back your claim. But there's multiple verses that the Holy Spirit is present when the Gospel is preached and heard. And the seed can only be planted if it's allowed.

In the example of Stephen we see it was clearly rejected. And we also see it affected Saul who soon after became Paul. Saul heard and the seed was planted. So within 1 example we see people can reject and people can receive from the Holy Spirit in the "same hearing" of the Gospel being preached. Saul heard and it later led to his transformation. The others heard but they stopped their ears. You reject the Word of God for a man made doctrine.

 

[Cameron143]

And there's NO verses to back your claim. But there's multiple verses that the Holy Spirit is present when the Gospel is preached and heard. And the seed can only be planted if it's allowed.

In the example of Stephen we see it was clearly rejected. And we also see it affected Saul who soon after became Paul. Saul heard and the seed was planted. So within 1 example we see people can reject and people can receive from the Holy Spirit in the "same hearing" of the Gospel being preached. Saul heard and it later led to his transformation. The others heard but they stopped their ears. You reject the Word of God for a man made doctrine.

Same seed, different soils, different results. Pretty sure there is a parable about it. Unless the heart is plowed, no harvest.
That's what you find in Acts 2 and 7. 3,000 converts verses killing the messenger. Which ones do you believe God was working in drawing men to Christ?

 

[selahsays]

Same seed, different soils, different results. Pretty sure there is a parable about it. Unless the heart is plowed, no harvest.
That's what you find in Acts 2 and 7. 3,000 converts verses killing the messenger. Which ones do you believe God was working in drawing men to Christ?

The saints.

 

[HeIsHere]

What you actually mean is PRE-CIRCUMCISED. Before they were born and OUTSIDE the scope of their free will.
In other words, saved whether they like it or not. Before any free-will decision on the part of the hearer is ever made.

Standard hyper-Calvinist heresy with a candy coating.

I think it is called "irresistible grace" given to some only.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Same seed, different soils, different results. Pretty sure there is a parable about it. Unless the heart is plowed, no harvest.
That's what you find in Acts 2 and 7. 3,000 converts verses killing the messenger. Which ones do you believe God was working in drawing men to Christ?

The Bible specifically claims ""they stopped"" their ears. So had they not stopped their ears they would align with all the other verses to become converts. So the Bible is showing by them having the power to ""stop their ears"" they have the power to reject the Gospel. That is 100% free will and a deniable fact the Bible proves.

 

[cv5]

Which ones do you believe God was working in drawing men to Christ?

All of them. Some received the Word. Some refused the Word. Both acts of their own free will.

 

[Cameron143]

The Bible specifically claims ""they stopped"" their ears. So had they not stopped their ears they would align with all the other verses to become converts. So the Bible is showing by them having the power to ""stop their ears"" they have the power to reject the Gospel. That is 100% free will and a deniable fact the Bible proves.

Nope. It shows the response of the natural man apart from God...a natural response. A supernatural response would have needed a supernatural work.

 

[Inquisitor]

Your reading of that scripture runs thus
If God damned the Jews for their unbelief so we can be damned too if we disbelief.Grafting
in or out of the olive tree does not equate to salvation or damnation it has to do with blessing
or the lack of it.

An appalling interpretation of Romans 11.

Grafting in actually means grafted into Christ.

Grafting out means severed from Christ.

That is why Paul said earlier.

Romans 11:7-10
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes to see not and ears to hear not, down to this very day.” And David says, “May their table become a snare and a trap, and a stumbling block and a retribution to them. May their eyes be darkened to see not, and bend their backs continually.”

Sure doesn't sound like a lack of a blessing.

 

[selahsays]

I think it is called "irresistible grace" given to some only.

…but you were given irresistible grace, too —because you love and believe in Jesus.

 

[Cameron143]

All of them. Some received the Word. Some refused the Word. Both acts of their own free will.

Salvation without God...awesome.

 

[cv5]

Nope. It shows the response of the natural man apart from God...a natural response. A supernatural response would have needed a supernatural work.

Because that is what they chose. To refuse the Spirit/seed/Word when offered.

I just witness precisely the same phenomenon a couple of days ago when preaching the Lord Jesus to a young man whom I had preached to several times before.

The seed bounced off the hard ground and the birds ate it. Stopped his ears. Dismissed the Spirit. Done.

You say chosen before birth to damnation.
I say he refused the call (and warning) that the Spirit (and His messenger/witness......yours truly) graciously provided.
Of his own free will. His choice. He now has a yet to be realized FUTURE "prescribed destination". But not a glorious one.

 

[Cameron143]

Because that is what they chose. To refuse the Spirit/seed/Word when offered.

I just witness precisely the same phenomenon a couple of days ago when preaching the Lord Jesus to a young man whom I had preached to several times before.

The seed bounced off the hard ground and the birds ate it. Stopped his ears. Dismissed the Spirit. Done.

You say chosen before birth to damnation.
I say he refused the call (and warning) that the Spirit (and His messenger/witness......yours truly) graciously provided.
Of his own free will. His choice. He now has a yet to be realized FUTURE "prescribed destination". But not a glorious one.

People make choices out of the abundance of their hearts. What's down in the well is what comes up in the bucket. If the heart is not first plowed, the seed will always be ineffective. Only when the seed finds fertile soil will an increase come forth. Only the Spirit can prepare the heart. The condition of the heart is always what produces the choice.

 

[cv5]

Salvation without God...awesome.

Ridiculous if not blasphemous.

God is doing both the calling and the saving. Because only He can.
What of those that do not heed the call and do not hear? They of course are not persuaded.
But the bigger issue is as follows: a dire predicament indeed.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD"

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

 

[Cameron143]

Ridiculous if not blasphemous.

God is doing both the calling and the saving. Because only He can.
What of those that do not heed the call and do not hear? They of course are not persuaded.
But the bigger issue is as follows: a dire predicament indeed.
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD"

Luk 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Deu 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

He's also doing the converting.

 

[cv5]

People make choices out of the abundance of their hearts. What's down in the well is what comes up in the bucket. If the heart is not first plowed, the seed will always be wasted. Only when the seed finds fertile soil will an increase come forth. Only the Spirit can prepare the heart. The condition of the heart is always what produces the choice.

So it was pre-circumcised/chosen before birth, now its long term preparation and self-effort and pre-plowing the soil?

Tell that to the thief on the cross or Zacchaeus. Both career criminals.