There will be no Rapture!!!

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TheDivineWatermark

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So Everyone will enter into the Tribulation Period.
Pre-Wrath Tribulation is - Revelation 7:14 [These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation]
By your phrase "Pre-Wrath Tribulation" here, do you mean (the same as your phrase) "Pre-Satan's Wrath"?



I DISAGREE with what it seems you're saying here.



The ones "coming out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION" are coming out of having existed IN IT (i.e. IN the SECOND HALF--that is FOLLOWING the AOD MID-point); the "GREAT" tribulation is the SECOND HALF, following the AOD (and hence, following when Satan will be cast down [at MID-trib] "having great wrath because...").


They will be washing their "stolas" (garments)--which is distinct from the promised "leukois himatiois" (which we see the 24 elders ALREADY awarded with, in 4:4--"having been clothed in..." [UP THERE]).

And I believe THEIR destination-location, shown in Rev7's latter verses, corresponds with the wording in Isaiah 49:10 (an earthly Millennial Kingdom context).







[and, btw, that is different wording from that of "I will KEEP YOU OUT-OF..." (the time-period of...)]
 

montana123

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God is love and loves all people but He has allotted mankind a certain amount of time on earth, and then He will end sin on earth.

So He is giving the world 7 years to have their way, and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ, and when they take the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to the world, and He will end sin on earth.

Which the devils can work in the world more than they could in the past.

If God is giving the world their way to go against the truth for 7 years then the saints will remain on earth, for if they are not on earth then how did the world go against the truth.

Some people believe the wrath of God is in the 7 years period, but it is not because God is giving the world their way so He will not go against them until the 7 years period is over.

For the first three and one half years salvation is available to the world so the saints will remain on earth, and the wrath of God is not there because salvation is still available to the world.

Paul said do not be deceived by any means for the gathering of the saints unto Christ shall not happen until there is a falling away first, and the man of sin claims to be God.

Also the Bible says there are souls under the altar in heaven asking Jesus when He will avenge them, and He said when the saints come out of tribulation which then all the saints on earth will be resurrected to heaven.

Which the falling away first is not talking about the Church for the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church, and Jesus said where there is 2 or more people together in His name then there He is in the midst of them.

There may be hypocrites, and many more today but it does not cause the Church to fall away.

The falling away is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which the nations governments in agreement stopped the preaching of the Gospel, and the belief in a personal God.

Which they are favoring the new age movement interpretation of religions, which they interpret the Bible according to the occult and evolution, and people are evolving to be spiritual, and Jesus became an ascended master, and there is no personal God, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher and above Jesus who is of the same belief system.

They will present Jesus in a different way reducing His status and people can evolve to be spiritual like He did.

Science is making all things compatible with the new age movement beliefs, and reality, saying they have new discoveries of everything that gives them a new perspective of all things, and that they were wrong about things in the past.

They will say the Bible is the truth, and for the world to embrace it, but they will give forth the new age movement interpretation.

Which the Bible says the time will come that people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible, but want to hear the Bible according to their own lusts, and will be turned on to fables(2 Timothy 4:2-4).

Which the Bible warns the saints of the new age movement(1 Timothy 4:1-5) which their beliefs are of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils for they follow Lucifer believing he is a god, and an alien, that gave mankind intelligence, and will cause the people that follow him to evolve along with the New Age Christ.

They believe aliens are going to help mankind to have peace, advance, and evolve, which they talk about the return of the gods.

They believe Lucifer did not fall in to sin and disgrace, but descended from Venus to Earth eons ago to bring the principle of mind to the then animal-man.

They do not believe Lucifer is a fallen angel for they do not believe in a God.

Science is involved with that saying humans are not from the earth, and the world needs to prepare for alien encounter, which they say they have proof of aliens, and they received a laser message from 140,000,000 miles away.

The new age movement believes in evolution but not according to the Darwinian worldview for they do not believe humans evolved from apes, but they are of the same lineage, but broke away from that lineage about 7 million years ago.

Science will take that position.

When the New Age Christ negotiates peace in the Middle East it will result in a 7 years peace treaty, and the 7 years will start, and he will push the agenda of the new age movement which he will think to change times and laws, and things will change drastically.

During the first half he will be influenced by the devil, and during the last half he will be controlled by the devil.

At the end of the first three and one half years the transgressors are come to the full, and war will break out in heaven and the devils are cast to earth, and Satan controls the man of sin as the New Age Christ, and the devils will deceive all people who do not love the truth which is the strong delusion that God will send all people who do not love the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Continued in next post
 

montana123

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Continued from above post

When the world takes the mark of the beast then salvation is no longer available to mankind which is a microchip, or something that is small that can receive a signal from a satellite to keep track of the people to deter crime.

Which United Nations Agenda 21 is to move all people in to the cities which they will do during the first three and one half years, and no development can happen outside city limits, and the people are the police force of the cities.

They will be given a microchip linked to satellite like a GPS tracking system for humans, which they can watch the people, and know their location, and if a crime happens they will know who was in the area, and how close they were to the crime scene.

This will cut out judges, lawyers, and the now known police force.

All information about the person will be on the chip including finances for it is the one world economic system, which no person can buy or sell without the chip.

The beast' s agenda is there is no personal God, but mankind's technology, and devices, can help to reduce crime, and have peace.

There will be no middle ground but people are either with God, or they are of the antichrist.

The beast blasphemes against God, and His tabernacle, and those that dwell in heaven, which he would not have to do that if the saints were not on earth, which he is saying Christianity is false, and there is no hope, and their God is not true.

But Paul said the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God which he will say he evolved to be spiritual, and the false prophet will do miracles in sight of the people to convince them that the New Age Christ did receive power, and gave this power to the false prophet, and he will share this power with all people who follow him by way of the Christ conscious.

Worship of the beast, and believing he is a savior of the world, and believing his agenda will happen before they take the mark of the beast so they know his agenda beforehand.

The beast will make war against the saints and prevail against them, which they are given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when they shall accomplish to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father when He will have put down all authority, power, and rule.

When the kingdom is delivered up to God then Jesus will put down the world then it is the end.

If the resurrection were pre-7 years, or mid-7 years, why would God allow them to keep going on for it will be the end, for when Jesus delivers up the kingdom to the Father it is the end so God would not allow them to continue on when it is the end.

So if God is giving the world their way for 7 years then at the end of that time it is the end then the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years and then be resurrected which happens when it is the end.

Also it cannot be pre-7 years for salvation is available to the world for the first three and one half years.

The saints will remain on earth for the last three and one half years, and the wrath of God is not there for the beast has power to continue for the last three and one half years, and has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues.

Also there is only 2 resurrections, 1 of the saints at the end of the 7 years period, and 1 of the dead at the end of the 7 years period.

There is no pre-7 years resurrection, and then a resurrection of tribulation saints for Jesus is going to take the saints at one time.

Also Jesus said when the resurrection happens the hypocrites will not make it, and if they knock on the door He will not open the door.

Once the resurrection happens no Gentiles can be able to be saved.

Also I say pre-7 years for the tribulation does not happen until the last three and one half years.

When the saints are resurrected to be with Jesus in heaven then at the battle of Armageddon which is part of the wrath of God upon the world the Bible says the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Him, which in another place it says, and thither cause thy mighty ones to come down oh LORD, and in another place Jesus, the WORD of God comes back and an army from heaven which is the saints.

Which Jesus will descend the same way He ascended, which He will step down on the Mount of Olives which splits so the Hebrews can run in the crack so they can escape, and to shield them from the brightness of His coming as He melts the flesh off of the bones of the beast and his army.

The resurrection will not happen until the end of the 7 years period because God is allowing the world to have their way for 7 years to go against the truth, so the saints will remain on earth during that time for if not then how did the world go against the truth for the saints on earth is the truth for they represent the kingdom of God, which a saint when they receive the Spirit the kingdom of God is within them.

And for people that say God will not allow His saints to go through that terribleness, but if that were the case then He would of not allowed the saints to be persecuted at all, and it is no different in the tribulation for persecution is persecution, and death is death, but it is only on a bigger scale for it is worldwide, which is why Jesus said it will be persecution that has never happened before.

The tribulation is not for the world but it is for the saints, and when the 7 years is over and the saints are off the earth then the wrath of God is poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon when Jesus comes back with the saints, and punishes the world for their sins and iniquities against Him.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Yes.

But there were DISINCT conversations.



No He didn't.

It was after they came out of the temple/temple complex (when He had already [THERE] said the words about the temple being destroyed) that they had a DISTINCT convo after the disciples had a few minutes to ponder what He'd just earlier said about that (so they could question Him about it... and other [semi-related] matters).




Nope.

"the beginning of birth pangs" is ONLY IN (His words of):

--Matthew 24:4-8
--Mark 13:5-8
--Luke 21:8-11


(whereas Jesus' EARLIER words specifically about the Temple destruction--is found only in Matt24:2-3 and Mark 13:1-2 and Luke 21:1-6,5-6 [when they were coming out of the temple/temple-complex], AFTER WHICH WORDS they then RELOCATE [to Mt of Olives]... and is when they then ASK Him about it and other things)...


... the only place the ANSWER to the disciples' LATER (different LOCATION) question/s of Him IS RECORDED (about the 70ad events) is in Luke 21:12-24a,b (with "c" following on from that 70ad point in the chronology);


But the "70ad events" is said (by Jesus) to be [/occur] "BEFORE ALL THESE beginning of birth pangs" per v.12!!


(and He does not mean "immediately before" ;) but SEQUENTIALLY "before")
You clearly do not read from the Church Fathers to the RCC to the Reformers and see a continual downward spiral of pains. Makes sense because it would cause you to admit this tangent you're running with.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Sofers injected misinformation? Where did that conspiracy theory come from?

All? Really? Even John was already dead? How do you know that? Was it the ante-Nicene gang, the Nicene gang...who foisted that bit of misinformation onto you?

MM
Multiple examples but here is one that I find interesting because the instructions are nowhere the same for verse 21:

From the Mikra:
סְכֶּן־נָא עִמּוֹ וּשְׁלם בָּהֶם תְּֽבוֹאַתְךָ טוֹבָֽה׃
Agree with God, and be at peace; thereby good will come to you.


From the Septuagint:
γενοῦ δὴ σκληρός ἐὰν ὑπομείνῃς εἶτ᾽ ὁ καρπός σου ἔσται ἐν ἀγαθοῗς
Be firm, I pray thee, if thou canst endure; then thy fruit shall prosper.


This is supposed to be the ""same verse.""
 

FollowerofShiloh

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By your phrase "Pre-Wrath Tribulation" here, do you mean (the same as your phrase) "Pre-Satan's Wrath"?



I DISAGREE with what it seems you're saying here.



The ones "coming out of THE GREAT TRIBULATION" are coming out of having existed IN IT (i.e. IN the SECOND HALF--that is FOLLOWING the AOD MID-point); the "GREAT" tribulation is the SECOND HALF, following the AOD (and hence, following when Satan will be cast down [at MID-trib] "having great wrath because...").


They will be washing their "stolas" (garments)--which is distinct from the promised "leukois himatiois" (which we see the 24 elders ALREADY awarded with, in 4:4--"having been clothed in..." [UP THERE]).

And I believe THEIR destination-location, shown in Rev7's latter verses, corresponds with the wording in Isaiah 49:10 (an earthly Millennial Kingdom context).







[and, btw, that is different wording from that of "I will KEEP YOU OUT-OF..." (the time-period of...)]
Chapter 7 Saints happen right before the Trumpets of chapter 8 which most pre-trib proclaim:
And Revelation 7 shows us they were in the Tribulation from EVERY nation-tongue-people = GENTILE Christians like You!

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and language = GENTILES

Verse 14 explains where these GENTILES come from:

Revelation 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."

And we know the 2nd half of Tribulation is the Jews, after the Beheading who are mentioned in Revelation 20:4.
 

Musicmaster

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Multiple examples but here is one that I find interesting because the instructions are nowhere the same for verse 21:

From the Mikra:
סְכֶּן־נָא עִמּוֹ וּשְׁלם בָּהֶם תְּֽבוֹאַתְךָ טוֹבָֽה׃
Agree with God, and be at peace; thereby good will come to you.


From the Septuagint:
γενοῦ δὴ σκληρός ἐὰν ὑπομείνῃς εἶτ᾽ ὁ καρπός σου ἔσται ἐν ἀγαθοῗς
Be firm, I pray thee, if thou canst endure; then thy fruit shall prosper.


This is supposed to be the ""same verse.""
You didn't answer my question as to how or why you think all the apostles were dead by 70 AD.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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You didn't answer my question as to how or why you think all the apostles were dead by 70 AD.

MM
I see there will be no reading between the lines with you when in previous interactions we've established that John was in Patmos during reign of Domitian and released by Trajen after Domitian's [95/96 A.D. death] (25+ years ""after"" 70 A.D.) and then became Bishop over the Ephesus Church and his own personal Disciples oversaw the other 6 Churches.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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You clearly do not read from the Church Fathers to the RCC to the Reformers and see a continual downward spiral of pains.
"the beginning of birth pangs" EQUAL the "SEALS"

The "SEALS" are included in what verse 1 of Rev says are "things which MUST come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"
(1:1 "to SHOW unto" = 4:1 "SHOW you")



... not "things" which would unfold over the course of some 2000 years.







[and Paul says one of the evidences that "the DOTL" would "be present" (for that to be a true statement)--which ARRIVES "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR;1Th5:3]"--is that "the man of sin BE REVEALED"--clearly he doesn't come on the scene TILL the "future" TRIB yrs]









So where the ECF were right on things, I don't mind saying so.

On points where they differ from Scripture, I must go with Scripture rather than them.




____________

On a slightly different note... Do you agree with Irenaeus who believed there are THREE [distinct] eternal destination-locations for believers (I think he said: Heaven, Paradise, and Earth)?
 

Genez

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Why is this being argued?
The Rapture being revealed in Scripture is an established fact...

To argue is to dignify someone trying to get a rise out of the insecure believer..,
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Why is this being argued?
The Rapture being revealed in Scripture is an established fact...

To argue is to dignify someone trying to get a rise out of the insecure believer..,
I have not actually seen anyone debating the Rapture will not happen.
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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I see there will be no reading between the lines with you when in previous interactions we've established that John was in Patmos during reign of Domitian and released by Trajen after Domitian's [95/96 A.D. death] (25+ years ""after"" 70 A.D.) and then became Bishop over the Ephesus Church and his own personal Disciples oversaw the other 6 Churches.
When you don't say what you mean, such as throwing in "all" in your statements, and then pretend to be miffed when someone questions your actual words, you fall back upon the "between the lines" mode of dodging? (rolling eyes to the ceiling) Whatever...

So, you've found some sort of writings, although not inspired by Yah, that allegedly fill in some gaps to the extent of forcing ecclesiastical, positional office upon John, this is your conclusion?

What seems strange is that, given those uninspired writings, Yah Himself didn't see fit to inspire the writing of such information, and yet you choose to follow those things of men as if it were inspired. Is there some sort of desire playing out there that betrays a striving to harangue about John allegedly stepping into a positional, religious office, so that he sounds like what is today practiced as an alleged office of "bishop"? I see this all the time, but wanted to try and plumb the trenches of what you think you see.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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Why is this being argued?
The Rapture being revealed in Scripture is an established fact...

To argue is to dignify someone trying to get a rise out of the insecure believer..,
Those in here and out there who refuse to consider evidences provided will always claim that there has been no debate. What they have done is create, what is to them, some sort of strange and outlandish and warped concept of a "blessed hope" couched within the context of THEM still being here through at least the first half of the tribulation, where more than one half of the world's population will die from famine, disease, wars, crimes, and all else that fall out from the wrath of the Lamb upon ALL of mankind at that time.

Hey, if they want to be here to enjoy, at minimum, the death of one out of every two people on this planet, then I say, "Go for it." They prefer to counted among the seven foolish virgins who were not prepared. Yah gives to us all the freedom to remain here, those who have such a warped desire. They reject the words of Yah so that they can hang on, with tenacity, their pet doctrines, and those warped doctrines from those dudes who happened to live in closer proximity to the apostles. Oh, and some believe John himself possessed the office of "bishop," and possibly wearing one of those fish caps that modern cultists wear, along with plush robes and possibly lavish jewelry of inestimable value.

Nope, no debate when standing on the mole hill of obstinance...

MM
 

montana123

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2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The falling away first is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel which the nations governments are in league stopping the preaching of the Gospel, and the belief in a personal God.

At the end of three and one half years the transgressors have come to the full, and then the antichrist will start to rule over the world which he will claim to be God which happens at the middle of a 7 years period.

Paul said the resurrection cannot happen until the man of sin claims to be God which is in the middle of the 7 years period.

So that knocks out the pre- 7 years period.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The antichrist has power to rule for the last three and one half years.

He shall make war against the saints and prevail against them which he shall destroy the holy and mighty people.

And they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and since the antichrist rules for the last three and one half years then the saints will be on earth for the last three and one half years.

When he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

At the end of the last three and one half years when the power of the holy people are scattered all things are finished then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and then He will put down all power, authority, and rule.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

At the end of the last three and one half years then the saints will be resurrected to be with those in heaven which the dead rising in Christ first might be they receive their glorified body for their souls are in heaven when the tribulation is going on.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

There is only 2 resurrections, 1 of the saints at the end of the 7 years period, and 1 of the dead at the end of the millennial reign of Christ.

Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

When the resurrection happens no Gentile can be saved for the hypocrites will not make it, and the Gospel has been preached in to all the world as a witness so if they dismiss the truth then they will not be resurrected.

There is no tribulation saints after a resurrection for if they missed the resurrection then they have no chance at salvation.

Once the resurrection happens then salvation is no longer available to the world.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

When the pre- 7 years resurrection does not happen it will overthrow the faith of some people for they will think they missed the resurrection, or the way people interpreted the Bible is not true.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

They will end up following a false interpretation of the Bible, and religions.

Most likely they will think the Bible was interpreted wrongly and go by a false interpretation of the Bible put out by the world, which all religions will be interpreted the same.

I do not understand how people get a pre- 7 years resurrection but will they be accountable for preaching this seeing it is wrong and might overthrow the faith of some people when it does not happen.
 

Musicmaster

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Feb 8, 2021
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They will end up following a false interpretation of the Bible, and religions.

Most likely they will think the Bible was interpreted wrongly and go by a false interpretation of the Bible put out by the world, which all religions will be interpreted the same.

I do not understand how people get a pre- 7 years resurrection but will they be accountable for preaching this seeing it is wrong and might overthrow the faith of some people when it does not happen.
What's interesting is the lack of attention to the fact that the Church is mentioned not even once in Revelation 6-20, covering the events of the tribulation, but there are some out there who eisegetically FORCE "Church" into the mention of the "saints" in that period, none of whom are wearing crowns of reward because they did not seek the Lord for His salvation before He takes up the Church from this earth when times were better. When those people eisegists do that, they are THEN creating a problem that THEN inadvertently supports the post-trib rapture theory since the "saints" are mentioned up to the very end of the tribulation.

Hey, if you people want to remain here through the tribulation, then by all means, demand in your prayers to Yah that He leave you here to suffer through the death of more than half the world's population in just the first half, with you folks only possibly escaping the bowl judgements...or you can stay for that too if you like, mainly by taking the mark if you so desire. It's all on you people who choose to deny the truth in order to hold to some warped and demented "blessed hope" that is a redefinition of key elements of scripture.

MM
 

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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Those in here and out there who refuse to consider evidences provided will always claim that there has been no debate. What they have done is create, what is to them, some sort of strange and outlandish and warped concept of a "blessed hope" couched within the context of THEM still being here through at least the first half of the tribulation, where more than one half of the world's population will die from famine, disease, wars, crimes, and all else that fall out from the wrath of the Lamb upon ALL of mankind at that time.

Hey, if they want to be here to enjoy, at minimum, the death of one out of every two people on this planet, then I say, "Go for it." They prefer to counted among the seven foolish virgins who were not prepared. Yah gives to us all the freedom to remain here, those who have such a warped desire. They reject the words of Yah so that they can hang on, with tenacity, their pet doctrines, and those warped doctrines from those dudes who happened to live in closer proximity to the apostles. Oh, and some believe John himself possessed the office of "bishop," and possibly wearing one of those fish caps that modern cultists wear, along with plush robes and possibly lavish jewelry of inestimable value.

Nope, no debate when standing on the mole hill of obstinance...

MM
Well, if anything. This topic is revealing by which spirit some will choose to follow.
And, that is why God placed us in this life for testing.
Testing to see whom He can reward.
And, to see whom He must refuse rewards.
Must deny them because they would become disruptive in eternity if given more power and happiness than they can handle.
Kind of like the attitude some take pleasure in having in this thread.

Happiness is power. It can be abused...
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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When you don't say what you mean, such as throwing in "all" in your statements, and then pretend to be miffed when someone questions your actual words, you fall back upon the "between the lines" mode of dodging? (rolling eyes to the ceiling) Whatever...

So, you've found some sort of writings, although not inspired by Yah, that allegedly fill in some gaps to the extent of forcing ecclesiastical, positional office upon John, this is your conclusion?

What seems strange is that, given those uninspired writings, Yah Himself didn't see fit to inspire the writing of such information, and yet you choose to follow those things of men as if it were inspired. Is there some sort of desire playing out there that betrays a striving to harangue about John allegedly stepping into a positional, religious office, so that he sounds like what is today practiced as an alleged office of "bishop"? I see this all the time, but wanted to try and plumb the trenches of what you think you see.

MM
Writings not inspired by Yah?
So why are you reading Revelation?
That's what I am discussing.
And I suppose the Disciples of John are just lying about John placing them over these other Churches?
You think everyone lies.
Whenever I have ran into this scenario before it led to the discovery that a liar thinks everyone else is always lying because they lie all of the time it leads them to believe everyone else is just like them.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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FollowerofShiloh

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Well, if anything. This topic is revealing by which spirit some will choose to follow.
The beautiful thing is that we know the history of these churches and that John was given instruction for them while at Patmos, then we have records of John and his own Disciples going to these Churches and fixing them. And that actually leads us to when Revelation actually begins. At chapter 4, in the Throne Room of God, and the whole Book of Revelation after that remains in the Throne Room of God.

So it's obvious the 7 Churches are merely mentioned for their sins and warnings but the "futuristic prophecy" actually begins at the Throne Room. So there's literally no reference to the Bride being actually ever mentioned at all in Revelation.

In chapter 7 it shows the Billions of people like today's setting from all nations and tongues and peoples [Gentiles] and some place during the Tribulation they end up in Heaven.

In chapter 20 we see those who rejected the Mark and were beheaded.

And we already know at the end of Tribulation the Angels gather what's mostly the converted Jews at the Second Coming.

But Revelation literally says ALL of these people were in the Tribulation even if it's for only a short time.


This clearly is talking about us because we know the majority of SINNERS going into the Tribulation will reject God. So the Number John could not count [like today's 2.5 Billion Christians] would make perfect sense it's the BRIDE.

7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb <------- those are the Gentile Christians of right now or within next year or so

7:14... “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation."