CJ Lovik with another prophecy backing up his 2030 return of Jesus

[Shilohsfoal]

Let the readers consider:

--Matthew 24:9 ("Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for My name's sake") takes place in the FIRST HALF of the tribulation period, JUST AFTER "the beginning of birth pangs" vv.4-8, which ARE the "SEALS" (the "SEALS" also take place WITHIN the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [noun]" Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1);


--all of THAT part ^ takes place prior to v.15's "AOD" (Dan12:11), which is the START of the 3.5 yr SECOND HALF you are referencing;


--Paul's words in 1Th5:1-3 lets us know that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman in labour (not well-after these have begun), and like I just said, Jesus spoken of those in Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 (not to mention, Lk21:8-11), with the FIRST OF THOSE BEING (v.4) "A CERTAIN ONE [bringing deception]" i.e. the man of sin / AC, his "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" ('IN HIS TIME' 2Th2:9a,8a,6,3a), corresponding with: "SEAL #1" and Daniel 11:36 (well-prior to the Dan12:1 MID-point) and Dan9:27a[,26b]--IOW, "the DOTL" commences WELL-BEFORE Christ's Second Coming to the earth as many suppose it does (in fact, 7 years before [i.e. 2520 days]);


--much more could be said, but this is enough for the time being...









[for the readers: the SECOND HALF alone is referred to as "the GREAT tribulation," and that is what follows the "AOD" at the MID-point]

There is no 3.5 years after the US armed forces place the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.

The resurection takes place at that time.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.



At that time does not mean 3.5 years after that time.
At that time means at that time.The resurection takes place in the twinkling of an eye.It does not take 3.5 years nor is it 3.5 years after that time.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is no 3.5 years after the US armed forces place the abomination of desolation in Jerusalem.

The resurection takes place at that time.

Daniel 12:1-2
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

At that time does not mean 3.5 years after that time.
At that time means at that time.The resurection takes place in the twinkling of an eye.It does not take 3.5 years nor is it 3.5 years after that time.

A few things to CONSIDER:

--Daniel 11:31 is in the section prior to where v.36 starts out talking about the one we know as "the AC / man of sin" (compare v.36 with 2Th2:4a,8a,9--"whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA"... "IN HIS TIME" v.6); Your verse 31 is speaking rather of Antiochus Epiphanes (A4E) back in 165bc or thereabouts;


--Daniel 12:3-4 is not speaking of a "bodily / physical resurrection [from the DEAD]," but rather, what other RELATED passages ALSO speak to: Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations WHERE SCATTERED (i.e. "dust of the earth" / "sow[n]... unto the earth") which is LIKENED UNTO a resurrection (re: ISRAEL) in passages such as this one AND Hosea 5:14-6:3... Isaiah 26:13-21,19... Romans 11:15[,25,27]... Ezekiel 37:12-14,21-23 [dry-bones prophecy]... Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40]... etc...;
These passages (about Israel) are NOT referencing a bodily / physical resurrection FROM THE DEAD, but rather are LIKENING this unto a resurrection (again, compare Ezekiel 37:12-14 to its vv.21-23....; and compare this to what Romans 11:15 is conveying);


--the TIMING of Dan12:1-4 is indeed 3.5 years till the END of the Trib yrs when Christ's Second Coming to the earth takes place (but Dan11:36-end of chpt, takes place in the FIRST HALF... but 11:31 took place back in 165bc and is not a part of the future Trib yrs... but is rather a TYPE of it [not saying it must "exactly" be replicated in the future, no])


--Daniel 12:13 IS bodily / physical resurrection (by contrast!) and that verse tells us that Daniel (OT saints) will be resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] at the END of the days (at the END of the "days" referenced in that chpt [vv.6-7,1], i.e. at the END of the Trib yrs)

 

[Shilohsfoal]

A few things to CONSIDER:

--Daniel 11:31 is in the section prior to where v.36 starts out talking about the one we know as "the AC / man of sin" (compare v.36 with 2Th2:4a,8a,9--"whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA"... "IN HIS TIME" v.6); Your verse 31 is speaking rather of Antiochus Epiphanes (A4E) back in 165bc or thereabouts;


--Daniel 12:3-4 is not speaking of a "bodily / physical resurrection [from the DEAD]," but rather, what other RELATED passages ALSO speak to: Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations WHERE SCATTERED (i.e. "dust of the earth" / "sow[n]... unto the earth") which is LIKENED UNTO a resurrection (re: ISRAEL) in passages such as this one AND Hosea 5:14-6:3... Isaiah 26:13-21,19... Romans 11:15[,25,27]... Ezekiel 37:12-14,21-23 [dry-bones prophecy]... Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40]... etc...;
These passages (about Israel) are NOT referencing a bodily / physical resurrection FROM THE DEAD, but rather are LIKENING this unto a resurrection (again, compare Ezekiel 37:12-14 to its vv.21-23....; and compare this to what Romans 11:15 is conveying);


--the TIMING of Dan12:1-4 is indeed 3.5 years till the END of the Trib yrs when Christ's Second Coming to the earth takes place (but Dan11:36-end of chpt, takes place in the FIRST HALF... but 11:31 took place back in 165bc and is not a part of the future Trib yrs... but is rather a TYPE of it [not saying it must "exactly" be replicated in the future, no])


--Daniel 12:13 IS bodily / physical resurrection (by contrast!) and that verse tells us that Daniel (OT saints) will be resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] at the END of the days (at the END of the "days" referenced in that chpt [vv.6-7,1], i.e. at the END of the Trib yrs)

False

Daniel 11:31-12:2 is the final 3.5 years.
The persecution of the saints in Israel in Daniel 11:33-35 lasts for a time,times and a half as Daniel wrote in daily 12:7.

Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.


This persecution does not last 2191 years.They only last for a time,times and a half.

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

A few things to CONSIDER:

--Daniel 11:31 is in the section prior to where v.36 starts out talking about the one we know as "the AC / man of sin" (compare v.36 with 2Th2:4a,8a,9--"whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA"... "IN HIS TIME" v.6); Your verse 31 is speaking rather of Antiochus Epiphanes (A4E) back in 165bc or thereabouts;


--Daniel 12:3-4 is not speaking of a "bodily / physical resurrection [from the DEAD]," but rather, what other RELATED passages ALSO speak to: Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations WHERE SCATTERED (i.e. "dust of the earth" / "sow[n]... unto the earth") which is LIKENED UNTO a resurrection (re: ISRAEL) in passages such as this one AND Hosea 5:14-6:3... Isaiah 26:13-21,19... Romans 11:15[,25,27]... Ezekiel 37:12-14,21-23 [dry-bones prophecy]... Jn6:39 [distinct from v.40]... etc...;
These passages (about Israel) are NOT referencing a bodily / physical resurrection FROM THE DEAD, but rather are LIKENING this unto a resurrection (again, compare Ezekiel 37:12-14 to its vv.21-23....; and compare this to what Romans 11:15 is conveying);


--the TIMING of Dan12:1-4 is indeed 3.5 years till the END of the Trib yrs when Christ's Second Coming to the earth takes place (but Dan11:36-end of chpt, takes place in the FIRST HALF... but 11:31 took place back in 165bc and is not a part of the future Trib yrs... but is rather a TYPE of it [not saying it must "exactly" be replicated in the future, no])


--Daniel 12:13 IS bodily / physical resurrection (by contrast!) and that verse tells us that Daniel (OT saints) will be resurrected ['to stand again' on the earth] at the END of the days (at the END of the "days" referenced in that chpt [vv.6-7,1], i.e. at the END of the Trib yrs)

I hope your not saying the time of the end was in 164 bc.

Daniel 11:33
Wise leaders will give instruction to many, but these teachers will die by fire and sword, or they will be jailed and robbed.
During these persecutions, little help will arrive, and many who join them will not be sincere.
And some of the wise will fall victim to persecution. In this way, they will be refined and cleansed and made pure until the time of the end, for the appointed time is still to come.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The armed forces,which place the abomination that causes Jerusalems desolation do not use idols to cause desolation.They use weapons.


His armed forces will set up the abomination that causes desolation .

Daniel 11:31
“His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


You can ask anyone in the armed forces what they would use to cause desolation and they would gladly tell you.Not a single serviceman would say an idol.They don't use idols to destroy and utterly make away many.

Daniel 11:44
But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many.





The armed forces are not going to set up an idol to annihilate many.

I am just going by what the defenition of an abomination which causes desolation is.

the word abomination is an idol or an Unclean things

dan 11 is antiochus epiphanies. He slaughtered a pig in the holy place.. That was the unclean thing

 

[Shilohsfoal]

I am just going by what the defenition of an abomination which causes desolation is.

the word abomination is an idol or an Unclean things

dan 11 is antiochus epiphanies. He slaughtered a pig in the holy place.. That was the unclean thing

Daniel 11 is mostly about US presidents and what they have been doing in the middle east.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Shilohsfoal 's "I hope your not saying the time of the end was in 164 bc."


Nope, that wasn't my point.

My point was:

--Daniel 11:31 (your verse) is in the section about A4E (165bc)... It is not until VERSE 36 that the passage begins to reference the far-future person we call the AC / the man of sin / the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" ("IN HIS TIME") / rider on wht horse WITH A "BOW" (SEAL #1) / "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100; Mt24:4/Mk13:5!]" bringing deception, at the START of the future 7-yr Trib years (aka, the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL"--JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME [7 yrs / 2520 days]);


--you are conflating these two distinct persons; Dan11:31-35 has a DISTINCT "AOD," being the one in 165bc (involving A4E);
It is the one in Dan12:11 that is the FUTURE one (future yet to us) and it says, "abomination of desolation SET UP [H5414]" (and Jesus had said, [it will be] "STANDING in the holy place";
This is also DISTINCT from what Lk21's 12 verses about the 70ad events talked about, esp. vv.20-21 "see Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES" [not the same thing!], which was to [and did] take place "BEFORE ALL [of the beginning of birth pangs]", whereas the FUTURE "AOD" takes place AFTER those! They CANNOT BE the SAME "SEE-then-FLEE" moments! [and they EACH have entirely DISTINCT outcomes / ends, to boot!])

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Daniel 11 is mostly about US presidents and what they have been doing in the middle east.

Um no it is not.

it is about the Greeks and that they did which caused the Maccabean revolt..

Here is an excerpt from the Bible knowledge commentary on dan 11 : 30 - 32


Daniel 11:30b–32 (BKC): For a second time (cf. v. 28) Antiochus took out his frustration on the Jews, the city of Jerusalem, and their temple. He vented his fury against the holy covenant, the entire Mosaic system (cf. v. 28), favoring any renegade Jews who turned to help him (cf. v. 32). He desecrated the temple and abolished the daily sacrifice. Antiochus sent his general Apollonius with 22,000 soldiers into Jerusalem on what was purported to be a peace mission. But they attacked Jerusalem on the Sabbath, killed many people, took many women and children as slaves, and plundered and burned the city.
In seeking to exterminate Judaism and to Hellenize the Jews, he forbade the Jews to follow their religious practices (including their festivals and circumcision), and commanded that copies of the Law be burned. Then he set up the abomination that causes desolation. In this culminating act he erected on December 16, 167 b.c. an altar to Zeus on the altar of burnt offering outside the temple, and had a pig offered on the altar. The Jews were compelled to offer a pig on the 25th of each month to celebrate Antiochus Epiphanes’ birthday. Antiochus promised apostate Jews (those who … violated the covenant; cf. v. 30) great reward if they would set aside the God of Israel and worship Zeus, the god of Greece. Many in Israel were persuaded by his promises (flattery) and worshiped the false god. However, a small remnant remained faithful to God, refusing to engage in those abominable practices. Antiochus IV died insane in Persia in 163 b.c. (Cf. comments on this Antiochus in 8:23–25.)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

^ @Shilohsfoal 's "I hope your not saying the time of the end was in 164 bc."


Nope, that wasn't my point.

My point was:

--Daniel 11:31 (your verse) is in the section about A4E (165bc)... It is not until VERSE 36 that the passage begins to reference the far-future person we call the AC / the man of sin / the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" ("IN HIS TIME") / rider on wht horse WITH A "BOW" (SEAL #1) / "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100; Mt24:4/Mk13:5!]" bringing deception, at the START of the future 7-yr Trib years (aka, the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL"--JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME [7 yrs / 2520 days]);


--you are conflating these two distinct persons; Dan11:31-35 has a DISTINCT "AOD," being the one in 165bc (involving A4E);
It is the one in Dan12:11 that is the FUTURE one (future yet to us) and it says, "abomination of desolation SET UP [H5414]" (and Jesus had said, [it will be] "STANDING in the holy place"; This is also DISTINCT from what Lk21's 12 verses about the 70ad events talked about, esp. vv.20-21 "see Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES" [not the same thing!], which was to [and did] take place "BEFORE ALL [of the beginning of birth pangs]", whereas the FUTURE "AOD" takes place AFTER those! They CANNOT BE the SAME "SEE-then-FLEE" moments! [and they EACH have entirely DISTINCT outcomes / ends, to boot!])

Yes

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well,the Jews must be afraid to build it where you believe it should be then.

I don't believe they are afraid at all. They have petitioned the United Nations 4 times to build a 3rd Temple and every time the U.N. has voted to deny it.

I have no idea why they need the U.N.'s permission but it's on file. Personally, the Jews should just build it. The USA would keep everyone from stopping it and the Muslims would not fire in that area because they could take out the Mosque and Domes of the Rock.

A Priest even bought the land that overlooks where the Temple goes because by the Book of Numbers you must sacrifice the Red Heifer in this land that's used for dedication of Temple and anointing of High Priest. So they have everything ready. I think as soon as the Red Heifer reaches age (in few months) they will begin building the Temple.

 

[Shilohsfoal]

^ @Shilohsfoal 's "I hope your not saying the time of the end was in 164 bc."


Nope, that wasn't my point.

My point was:

--Daniel 11:31 (your verse) is in the section about A4E (165bc)... It is not until VERSE 36 that the passage begins to reference the far-future person we call the AC / the man of sin / the "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" ("IN HIS TIME") / rider on wht horse WITH A "BOW" (SEAL #1) / "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100; Mt24:4/Mk13:5!]" bringing deception, at the START of the future 7-yr Trib years (aka, the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL"--JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth over SOME TIME [7 yrs / 2520 days]);


--you are conflating these two distinct persons; Dan11:31-35 has a DISTINCT "AOD," being the one in 165bc (involving A4E);
It is the one in Dan12:11 that is the FUTURE one (future yet to us) and it says, "abomination of desolation SET UP [H5414]" (and Jesus had said, [it will be] "STANDING in the holy place"; This is also DISTINCT from what Lk21's 12 verses about the 70ad events talked about, esp. vv.20-21 "see Jerusalem COMPASSED WITH ARMIES" [not the same thing!], which was to [and did] take place "BEFORE ALL [of the beginning of birth pangs]", whereas the FUTURE "AOD" takes place AFTER those! They CANNOT BE the SAME "SEE-then-FLEE" moments! [and they EACH have entirely DISTINCT outcomes / ends, to boot!])

No,the man of sin is introduced in verse 11:21.

Daniel 11:21
The next to come to power will be a despicable man who is not in line for royal succession. He will slip in when least expected and take over the kingdom by flattery and intrigue.



I take it you have not been paying much attention to this prophecy of Daniels .Perhaps you should reconsider who you are being taught by.


Who taught you dan 11:31 was about antiochus?Do you know who first taught this doctrine?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No,the man of sin is introduced in verse 11:21.

Daniel 11:21
The next to come to power will be a despicable man who is not in line for royal succession. He will slip in when least expected and take over the kingdom by flattery and intrigue.



I take it you have not been paying much attention to this prophecy of Daniels .Perhaps you should reconsider who you are being taught by.


Who taught you dan 11:31 was about antiochus?Do you know who first taught this doctrine?

Which is exactly what Antiochus epiphanies did.

Perhaps you should reconsider who you are being taught by.. (back at ya in other words)

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Which is exactly what Antiochus epiphanies did.

Perhaps you should reconsider who you are being taught by.. (back at ya in other words)

I've been watching the chapter being fulfilled.Many things Daniel prophecied has been taking place in my lifetime.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I've been watching the chapter being fulfilled.Many things Daniel prophecied has been taking place in my lifetime.

i already read about the fulfilment.

I also see many things that people think that do not make sense.

The prince who is to come will confirm a covenant for 1 week (7 years) in the middle of that week. He will declair himself to be above God. And place the abomination of desolation in the holy place of a rebuilt temple

Which is what Jesus told us (actually those who will be in jerusalem in those days) to look for

 

[Shilohsfoal]

i already read about the fulfilment.

I also see many things that people think that do not make sense.

The prince who is to come will confirm a covenant for 1 week (7 years) in the middle of that week. He will declair himself to be above God. And place the abomination of desolation in the holy place of a rebuilt temple

Which is what Jesus told us (actually those who will be in jerusalem in those days) to look for

Jesus said the people in judea who are on their housetops and in the fields will see the abomination that causes desolation.

If it were in a little building,then them who are in the fields would not see it.What these people in the fields and on their rooftops are seeing is a fearful sight in the heavens

These people are not fleeing from a statue.



Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.




No one has a heart attack by seeing an idol.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Jesus said the people in judea who are on their housetops and in the fields will see the abomination that causes desolation.

If it were in a little building,then them who are in the fields would not see it.What these people in the fields and on their rooftops are seeing is a fearful sight in the heavens

These people are not fleeing from a statue.



Luke 21
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.




No one has a heart attack by seeing an idol.

Yes he said they would see it,

Until the advent of satellites and globsl news. This would be impossible

But the whole world will see it..

The US is not even mentioned in end times.. I believe we will not be a factor.. and if we keep going like we are. We will not even be a nation

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The prince who is to come will confirm a covenant for 1 week (7 years)

Right... and which AGREES with all other related passages on THIS Subject!

in the middle of that week. He will declair himself to be above God. And place the abomination of desolation in the holy place of a rebuilt temple

Right:

--scripture calls that "the temple of God" (2Th2:4b; and Rev11:1 which verse clearly DISTINGUISHES "the temple of God" from "THEY that worship THEREIN"); BTW, Paul, when referencing US as "temple," never uses the "definite article ['the']"... so there's a clue (the AC doesn't "sitteth" IN US!, as some like to suggest);


--the part you reference that 2Th2:4 speaks of, connects back to the very description Daniel 11:36 gives regarding him, where it says, "he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods..." and verse 37 adds, "for he shall magnify himself ABOVE ALL" (corresponding to both 2Th2:4a,b,9 and Rev13:5-7,1 ['mouth']... not to mention Dan7:11a,20,21,25)

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Yes he said they would see it,

Until the advent of satellites and globsl news. This would be impossible

But the whole world will see it..

The US is not even mentioned in end times.. I believe we will not be a factor.. and if we keep going like we are. We will not even be a nation

Jesus is only speaking of them in judea.
They will not even go inside their house to watch TV mews.They will flee in haste to the mountains and hide underground saying to the mountains"fall on us".

Luke 23
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Same thing revelation says.

Revelation 6
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Right... and which AGREES with all other related passages on THIS Subject!



Right:

--scripture calls that "the temple of God" (2Th2:4b; and Rev11:1 which verse clearly DISTINGUISHES "the temple of God" from "THEY that worship THEREIN"); BTW, Paul, when referencing US as "temple," never uses the "definite article ['the']"... so there's a clue (the AC doesn't "sitteth" IN US!, as some like to suggest);


--the part you reference that 2Th2:4 speaks of, connects back to the very description Daniel 11:36 gives regarding him, where it says, "he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods..." and verse 37 adds, "for he shall magnify himself ABOVE ALL" (corresponding to both 2Th2:4a,b,9 and Rev13:5-7,1 ['mouth']... not to mention Dan7:11a,20,21,25)

Sounds like your not in the temple of God.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Sounds like your not in the temple of God.

Here's what I said (read it carefully):

--scripture calls that "the temple of God" (2Th2:4b; and Rev11:1 which verse clearly DISTINGUISHES "the temple of God" from "THEY that worship THEREIN");

[and]

BTW, Paul, when referencing US as "temple," never uses the "definite article ['the']"... so there's a clue (the AC doesn't "sitteth" IN US!, as some like to suggest);










____________

Once "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" departs this earth in "our Rapture [IN THE AIR; headed to 1Th3:13's destination!]," there is NO "temple" located on the earth at that point... so NOTHING prevents 2Th2:4 / Rev11:1 from being a tangible structure being legitimately called "the temple of God" (and Irenaeus even spoke of this--if you're into reading what he put, back in the early days)