Election teaches that salvation comes from the Lord.

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Cameron143 said:
Understanding how salvation transpires and why it takes place as it does would alleviate alot of the confusion. But the Bible is written in such a way as to confound the wise.

If you speak to a Calvinist long enough, you can get them to consent that the new believer of their own volition, choose obedience as their choice to the actions of God that wrought salvation. But because the natural man is at enmity with God, he believes God must first circumcise the heart to effect such change.
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Please tell us the name of this Calvinist who believes that choice is involved so we can all commend them... :ROFL: Plus as has been mentioned before in our discussions, circumcision of the heart is rarely mentioned in regard to these matters... It also seems apparent that many believe there is only one way that God draws any to Him and saves them, but I just don't believe that God is a cookie cutter 😁
 
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I deal with a lot of Stoners now that marijuana is about legal all over the States when I witness to all sorts of people. If I were to say to a Stoner, God forces no one to be saved but I had NO choice in the matter, the Stoner would definitely ask, what kind of Dope are you smoking because that's what I need :ROFL::LOL::ROFL:
 
Magenta said:
Please tell us the name of this Calvinist who believes that choice is involved so we can all commend them... :ROFL: Plus as has been mentioned before in our discussions, circumcision of the heart is rarely mentioned in regard to these matters... It also seems apparent that many believe there is only one way that God draws any to Him and saves them, but I just don't believe that God is a cookie cutter 😁
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Every person believes in choice. Some believe they choose, while others believe God chooses. But, even further, every Calvinist believes after the heart is circumcised, the new believer freely chooses to repent and obey of their own volition. What Calvinists believe is that the heart of man is wicked and predisposed against God. The Bible clearly teaches this. The natural man is at enmity with God.
Some believe that mysteriously a heart that is contrary to God inside a person who can do nothing of themselves to change their heart will miraculously seek the very God they have previously opposed as they walked contrary to Him since birth. They believe this because both their concept of God is distorted, and because their understanding of the condition of the natural man is incorrect.
That said, within salvation, God does come to individuals in a veritable plethora of ways and means as He lovingly guides His children home. I've heard some even get fatted calves.
 
Cameron143 said:
Every person believes in choice. Some believe they choose, while others believe God chooses. But, even further, every Calvinist believes after the heart is circumcised, the new believer freely chooses to repent and obey of their own volition. What Calvinists believe is that the heart of man is wicked and predisposed against God. The Bible clearly teaches this. The natural man is at enmity with God.
Some believe that mysteriously a heart that is contrary to God inside a person who can do nothing of themselves to change their heart will miraculously seek the very God they have previously opposed as they walked contrary to Him since birth. They believe this because both their concept of God is distorted, and because their understanding of the condition of the natural man is incorrect.
That said, within salvation, God does come to individuals in a veritable plethora of ways and means as He lovingly guides His children home. I've heard some even get fatted calves.
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Cameron, I have actually spoken to people here who believe they had no choice in the matter... And others who say such things as, if you have to do anything at all, such as receive Jesus as the Scriptures say, or believe on His name as the Scriptures say, or that we are sealed upon belief etc etc... they deny all of that and say if we have to do anything at all ... any of those things are classified as a work, and therefore wipe out the grace of God.
 
Cameron143 said:
Jeremiah 17:9 describes the heart of the natural man. It is in bad shape. That's why it is circumcised in salvation.
And I'm not in a camp. I despise camping.
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The Lord was giving Jeremiah a dissertation concerning the morally corrupted and degenerate state the Jews whom God was about to judge.
The deceitful heart was to topic... Why?

Those Jews were performing ritual pagan sex orgies out in the fields, where they would throw children into fire, to have the children's screams supercharge their lustful practices which involved all sorts of sexual perversions going on.

That was why the Lord mentioned the "deceitful heart."
Because when it gets bad, that heart becomes beyond comprehension.
 
Cameron143 said:
Your first statement is true. But you can't even see your own insensitivity and pride. Much truth is left unheard as the messenger tramples all over their own message.
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What are you talking about? ....

(I wish you did know what you were talking about)
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
No, it shows that from beginning the plan is for anyone saved will be saved by Jesus.
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The passage also shows that Election, having been chosen in Christ before the foundation is part of Paul's Gospel message and it was heard in the Gospel they heard of him in Eph 1:13, so was being predestinated Vs 5
 
Genez said:
All sin is against the Lord!

Psalm 51:1-4

For the director of music. A psalm of David. When the prophet Nathan ​
came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba.​
​
Have mercy on me, O God,​
according to your unfailing love;​
according to your great compassion​
blot out my transgressions.​
Wash away all my iniquity​
and cleanse me from my sin.​
​
For I know my transgressions,​
and my sin is always before me.​
Against you, you only, have I sinned​
and done what is evil in your sight;​
so you are right in your verdict​
and justified when you judge.​

David sinned against Uriah and Bathsheba....
He committed adultery and murder.
Yet? It was against the Lord alone that David sinned!

All sin is ultimately against the Lord.
All types of sin cuts us off from the filling of the Spirit,
as to render the believer to be walking in his emotions.

Walking in emotions = dumb thinking with the Word of God...
Though, thinking he is wise. = Self righteousness.

God does not compromise with His Word nor a believer.
Stick with what it says.

He no respecter of persons.



grace and peace .........
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There is carnal, earthly sin, and there is spiritual sin.
David's sin above was earthly sin. Because David was of the elect of God, his salvation was never in jeopardy.
So, you seem unwilling or unable to distinguish between the two types of sin.
When indwelled by the Holy Spirit through spiritual rebirth (upon being saved), He never departs from us.
I think you claim to be a Christian, yet you always seem to find a way to deny the efficacy
of Christ and His offering for the remittance of sin, and instead, place the burden for it upon man.
Do you truly believe that Christ solely and fully is the Saviour in all ways, or don't you? Yes, or no?
Or do you instead believe that man must make himself worthy of salvation and/or contribute to it
in some way?
If you believe that Christ is the Saviour, then how can you think other sin as being the equal of
not trusting in He whom God the Father expressly sent as the Saviour, for the very purpose of remitting sin?
In other words, He who remits sin must be greater than all of the sins that He remits. So, should someone reject Him,
they would then be rejecting forgiveness itself, and thereby, committing the sin of sins - a sin far worse sin than all other sin.
Therefore, not all sin is equal.
 
rogerg said:
There is carnal, earthly sin, and there is spiritual sin.
David's sin above was earthly sin. Because David was of the elect of God, his salvation was never in question.
So, you seem unwilling or unable to distinguish between the two types of sin.
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Two types of sinners. Not two types of sin.
 
Magenta said:
Cameron, I have actually spoken to people here who believe they had no choice in the matter... And others who say such things as, if you have to do anything at all, such as receive Jesus as the Scriptures say, or believe on His name as the Scriptures say, or that we are sealed upon belief etc etc... they deny all of that and say if we have to do anything at all ... any of those things are classified as a work, and therefore wipe out the grace of God.
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Right. They believe all choices are made after the individual is born from above. Having been regenerated, the new believer now has the ability to pursue and respond to God.
Others believe the natural man can, of himself, do so in his natural estate.

But everyone believes choices are made. The debate is whether it is before or after God does His work. In other words, before spiritual life is given, or after.
 
brightfame52 said:
The passage also shows that Election, having been chosen in Christ before the foundation is part of Paul's Gospel message and it was heard in the Gospel they heard of him in Eph 1:13, so was being predestinated Vs 5
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John tells us the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us.
So the WORD is Spirit because God is Spirit and became flesh and we know Him as Jesus.
Ephesians shows us the Election of how God chose to save people from the very beginning.
So the WORD became flesh to bring salvation.
It has no meaning to who is being saved but how they are going to be saved.

Once again, if Jesus was not mentioned in these verses, how can people be saved without Jesus?
 
Cameron143 said:
Right. They believe all choices are made after the individual is born from above. Having been regenerated, the new believer now has the ability to pursue and respond to God.
Others believe the natural man can, of himself, do so in his natural estate.

But everyone believes choices are made. The debate is whether it is before or after God does His work. In other words, before spiritual life is given, or after.
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Makes no difference to a God who is omniscient as to when they will believe...
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
The Election is for how God is going to save people.

Jesus is how.

Jesus is the one Elected to bring Salvation, Blessing, and Adoption to people.
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When we believe we become grafted into His election. We become "one flesh." = Bride of Christ!
 
Genez said:
Makes no difference to a God who is omniscient as to when they will believe...
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What he refuses to say is the Bible shows us on 4 occasions people heard preaching and while hearing the Holy Spirit came and fell upon them and then they were saved.

Nowhere does it say the Holy Spirit comes before hearing the preaching. But the Reformed want to preach it does.

So we have the Bible that gives us 4 clear examples of hearing the Gospel and then the Holy Spirit comes or the Reformed lies that can not be found in the Bible.

And then they are offended because we don't believe their lies.

Too bad!
 
Genez said:
The Lord was giving Jeremiah a dissertation concerning the morally corrupted and degenerate state the Jews whom God was about to judge.
The deceitful heart was to topic... Why?

Those Jews were performing ritual pagan sex orgies out in the fields, where they would throw children into fire, to have the children's screams supercharge their lustful practices which involved all sorts of sexual perversions going on.

That was why the Lord mentioned the "deceitful heart."
Because when it gets bad, that heart becomes beyond comprehension.
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That's the heart unregenerate man.
 
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