Too smart for God

[Burn1986]

Jesus said that we must “… become as a little child…”

This is probably the hardest thing for a person to do, especially a smart, intellectual, and well read person to do. This is the reason many “simple” people are Christians. In fact, many of us had a salvation experience and didn’t understand all that happened until later on.

 

[ResidentAlien]

"For our boasting is this: the testimony of our conscience that we conducted ourselves in the world in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom but by the grace of God, and more abundantly toward you." 2 Corinthians 1:12

 

[p_rehbein]

Jesus said that we must “… become as a little child…”

This is probably the hardest thing for a person to do, especially a smart, intellectual, and well read person to do. This is the reason many “simple” people are Christians. In fact, many of us had a salvation experience and didn’t understand all that happened until later on.

Yes, and No,

There may seem to be more "uneducated" believers, and possibly so. However, there are scores of well educated (book learning) peoples who are devout Christians.

The idea you put forth is pretty much the "talking points" of the far left liberal unbelievers. They always assert one has to be ignorant to believe in God, Jesus and the Bible.

The truth is, one has to have "far greater faith" to believe in their thoughts concerning Creation. Especially Darwin's Theory of Evolution of the Species.

Did you know Darwin had a Degree in Theology? Cambridge School of Theology. In his original publishing's, he included a statement that if his Theory was proved wrong, he was sorry for any harm he had done, Almost all Texts of his Theory have edited this statement out. No big surprise there, huh?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Mathew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus said that we must “… become as a little child…”

This is probably the hardest thing for a person to do, especially a smart, intellectual, and well read person to do. This is the reason many “simple” people are Christians. In fact, many of us had a salvation experience and didn’t understand all that happened until later on.

“Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool,

that he may be wise.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

those little ones flocking to Jesus were running to wisdom

 

[Dino246]

With this topic , it’s worthwhile to distinguish between intelligence and wisdom. Many worldly people are intelligent, but few are wise except in a limited scope.

 

[Burn1986]

Yes, and No,

There may seem to be more "uneducated" believers, and possibly so. However, there are scores of well educated (book learning) peoples who are devout Christians.

The idea you put forth is pretty much the "talking points" of the far left liberal unbelievers. They always assert one has to be ignorant to believe in God, Jesus and the Bible.

The truth is, one has to have "far greater faith" to believe in their thoughts concerning Creation. Especially Darwin's Theory of Evolution of the Species.

Did you know Darwin had a Degree in Theology? Cambridge School of Theology. In his original publishing's, he included a statement that if his Theory was proved wrong, he was sorry for any harm he had done, Almost all Texts of his Theory have edited this statement out. No big surprise there, huh?

Youre obviously proving my point for me. Not sure what Darwin’s experience was with the Holy Spirit, or his conversion experience in general.

1 Cor 2:4 says “And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

John 3:4, 10-11 says “Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Nicodemus responded and said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “You are the teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you people do not accept our testimony.

Nicodemus could not wrap his mind around spiritual things or experiences. Jesus was explaining experiences and what He knew, but Nicodemus just couldn’t grasp it, even though he was extremely well read and very intelligent.

How do you intellectually explain the experience of salvation and/ or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues? How do you logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead, or long fasts to seek God? Where does the intellect come in when praying for your child’s salvation, or a friend’s healing? It’s part of our human nature to fiercely explain how things happen. In fact our flesh (mind, will, emotions, intellect, reasoning) will war against spiritual experiences and faith. That is the battle we face daily.

 

[maxwel]

Jesus said that we must “… become as a little child…”

This is probably the hardest thing for a person to do, especially a smart, intellectual, and well read person to do. This is the reason many “simple” people are Christians. In fact, many of us had a salvation experience and didn’t understand all that happened until later on.

SPIRIT vs MIND - Misunderstanding "becoming like children"


1.) To "become like children" does NOT mean to turn off our mind & intellect to promote the spirit.

2.) In scripture, there is no war between the SPIRIT and the MIND.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
- We are not merely to love God with the heart and our soul... but also with the mind.

3.) The war we DO find is a war between the SPIRIT and our SIN NATURE.... the mind, the intellect, is supposed to serve God.
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

4.) The human mind & thought processes are corrupted by sin - but we also cannot function WITHOUT the mind and thought processes. So we are to USE THEM, but use them while BRINGING THEM UNDER SUBJECTION to Christ.
- Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
- Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind,
- 1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
- Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

5.) The enemy of God is NOT human intellect, it is human SIN... the intellect is just a tool at our disposal, given by God, which we can use for good or evil.


6.) CONCLUSION:
We are to USE the mind to serve God, so the phrase "become like children" cannot mean to turn off our minds.
So what does it mean?
It is RELATIONAL:

a.) To "become like children" does not refer to intellect, but to RELATIONSHIP... we are to have a relationship to God like little children.... while our MIND is that of an adult.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

b.) In what ways would a CHILDLIKE RELATIONSHIP please God... what is Christ talking about?
- TRUST God, like a child trusts a parent.
- DEPEND upon God, like a child depends up on a parent.
- CLING to God, like a child clings to a parent.
- SUBMIT to God, like a child submits to a parent.
* It is about RELATIONSHIP... intellect is not part of it at all.




To "become like little children" isn't referring to the mind or intellect...
it is referring to relationship.


God Bless.

.

 

[Burn1986]

SPIRIT vs MIND - Misunderstanding "becoming like children"


1.) To "become like children" does NOT mean to turn off our mind & intellect to promote the spirit.

2.) In scripture, there is no war between the SPIRIT and the MIND.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
- We are not merely to love God with the heart and our soul... but also with the mind.

3.) The war we DO find is a war between the SPIRIT and our SIN NATURE.... the mind, the intellect, is supposed to serve God.
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

4.) The human mind & thought processes are corrupted by sin - but we also cannot function WITHOUT the mind and thought processes. So we are to USE THEM, but use them while BRINGING THEM UNDER SUBJECTION to Christ.
- Rom 8:6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
- Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind,
- 1Co 14:15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.
- Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

5.) The enemy of God is NOT human intellect, it is human SIN... the intellect is just a tool at our disposal, given by God, which we can use for good or evil.


6.) CONCLUSION:
We are to USE the mind to serve God, so the phrase "become like children" cannot mean to turn off our minds.
So what does it mean?
It is RELATIONAL:

a.) To "become like children" does not refer to intellect, but to RELATIONSHIP... we are to have a relationship to God like little children.... while our MIND is that of an adult.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

b.) In what ways would a CHILDLIKE RELATIONSHIP please God... what is Christ talking about?
- TRUST God, like a child trusts a parent.
- DEPEND upon God, like a child depends up on a parent.
- CLING to God, like a child clings to a parent.
- SUBMIT to God, like a child submits to a parent.
* It is about RELATIONSHIP... intellect is not part of it at all.




To "become like little children" isn't referring to the mind or intellect...
it is referring to relationship.


God Bless.

.

Yeah, I mean, good points. Obviously we have to use our faculties, but not depend on our understanding before doing something we don’t want to do, but know we should do it, even when our mind argues against us. I’m sure the priest who stepped into the raging Jordan river used their mind to look into the river for the best place to step, all the while saying to themselves “Thus is utterly crazy.” Of course once they did the waters stopped, but it was a battle with their mind up until that point.

 

[Blade]

Jesus said that we must “… become as a little child…”

This is probably the hardest thing for a person to do, especially a smart, intellectual, and well read person to do. This is the reason many “simple” people are Christians. In fact, many of us had a salvation experience and didn’t understand all that happened until later on.

I don't see that verse like that. If your a parent you know that child just believes. My son in preschool would follow Adena around everywhere and she would never have anything to with him. So I said were gonna pray. I said see when it comes to kids.. God can whisper...no one better and they listen its only as we get older we get in the way. So I prayed and I don't a week or so went by and I came to get him.. I have to.. proud of my self here. Well two kids in that preschool and one day the girl came up and said "we just love you. You don't know how many parent leave the children to the last min". I was blessed then to work out side alone and so many times I took them with me. Always got the early. SO when I got him that one day they were all sitting Jake gets up and Adena gets up comes over hugs him.

 

[posthuman]

Jesus said that we must “… become as a little child…”

This is probably the hardest thing for a person to do, especially a smart, intellectual, and well read person to do. This is the reason many “simple” people are Christians. In fact, many of us had a salvation experience and didn’t understand all that happened until later on.

i dunno, the smarter i get the more i realize the value of childishness.

imho the issue you're getting at is pride/vanity. but no one who really gathers knowledge is vain; real knowledge teachea a person their relative ignorance.

one thing i have noticed is that envy is just as much a destroyer as pride is.

 

[posthuman]

Nicodemus could not wrap his mind around spiritual things or experiences

i disagree. Nicodemus's reply is extremely intelligent and spiritual. the whole conversation in John 3 is at a ridiculously high level.

he is an extraordinary man - "the" teacher of Israel, willing to go against all the rest of the Pharisees because of his faith, and to approach Christ with the confession that he knew He is from God.

don't forget, this man figured out that Christ would give Himself to be crucified at Pesach and together with Joseph of Arimathea had a tomb, linen burial clothes and spices for the preparation of the body ready and waiting. not even the apostles had this understanding!

 

[posthuman]

i disagree. Nicodemus's reply is extremely intelligent and spiritual. the whole conversation in John 3 is at a ridiculously high level.

he is an extraordinary man - "the" teacher of Israel, willing to go against all the rest of the Pharisees because of his faith, and to approach Christ with the confession that he knew He is from God.

don't forget, this man figured out that Christ would give Himself to be crucified at Pesach and together with Joseph of Arimathea had a tomb, linen burial clothes and spices for the preparation of the body ready and waiting. not even the apostles had this understanding!

we should definitely not read John 3 thinking we are smarter than Nicodemus.

the safe bet is that we are far more stupid than him. anyone teaching you differently is potentially deceiving you.

 

[p_rehbein]

How do you intellectually explain the experience of salvation and/ or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues? How do you logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead, or long fasts to seek God? Where does the intellect come in when praying for your child’s salvation, or a friend’s healing? It’s part of our human nature to fiercely explain how things happen. In fact our flesh (mind, will, emotions, intellect, reasoning) will war against spiritual experiences and faith. That is the battle we face daily.

Through the use of Scripture, each of these can be explained. Not for nothing, but your assertion that a person must be intellectually inferior to be a believer in and follower of Jesus is intellectually inferior in and of itself. Why would I say that? Well, I had a 4.0GPA in College, and when tested by the University of Houston and Harris County Social Services scored in the top 20% of the Nation intellectually.

I know many believers who hold Masters and Doctorate Degrees from well regarded Universities across the country. Personally, methinks you came up with this notion, and now are trying to justify it with a "strawman" approach to your comments.

Which of the Apostles were well educated? Matthew, Luke? How about the Apostle Paul who was very well educated? Give me any documented evidence that believers are intellectually inferior to agnostics or atheists, and then your assertion may have a leg to stand on.

You might just want to give this one up........just saying

 

[maxwel]

How do you intellectually explain the experience of salvation and/ or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues? How do you logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead, or long fasts to seek God? Where does the intellect come in when praying for your child’s salvation, or a friend’s healing? It’s part of our human nature to fiercely explain how things happen. In fact our flesh (mind, will, emotions, intellect, reasoning) will war against spiritual experiences and faith. That is the battle we face daily.

Through the use of Scripture, each of these can be explained. Not for nothing, but your assertion that a person must be intellectually inferior to be a believer in and follower of Jesus is intellectually inferior in and of itself. Why would I say that? Well, I had a 4.0GPA in College, and when tested by the University of Houston and Harris County Social Services scored in the top 20% of the Nation intellectually.

I know many believers who hold Masters and Doctorate Degrees from well regarded Universities across the country. Personally, methinks you came up with this notion, and now are trying to justify it with a "strawman" approach to your comments.

Which of the Apostles were well educated? Matthew, Luke? How about the Apostle Paul who was very well educated? Give me any documented evidence that believers are intellectually inferior to agnostics or atheists, and then your assertion may have a leg to stand on.

You might just want to give this one up........just saying

"How do you intellectually explain the experience of salvation and/ or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues? How do you logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead"

1.) I think you're using imaginary definitions for "intellect" and "logic".

2.) Logical processes are not at war with the spirit... but a "poor definition" of logical processes may be at war with the spirit.

3.) If you give definitions for "logic" and "intellect" (rather than just using the terms for some shadowy, undefined bogey man)
we can quickly show:
a. they work perfectly with the spirit - and we simply haven't thought carefully enough about how they operate.
b. we've picked non-standard definitions that need to be rethought




This particular topic creates a lot of controversy in Christianity to this very day, and the issue has not always existed, it's fairly modern.
We can trace the issue back to David Hume in the 18th century.


God Bless.

.

 

[maxwel]

P_rehbein,

I think the quote above (in my post) was from you quoting someone else... but I was in a hurry and couldn't find the original quote.

Sorry about any confusion.



Have a great weekend.

.

 

[posthuman]

How do you intellectually explain the experience of salvation and/ or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues? How do you logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead, or long fasts to seek God? Where does the intellect come in when praying for your child’s salvation, or a friend’s healing? It’s part of our human nature to fiercely explain how things happen. In fact our flesh (mind, will, emotions, intellect, reasoning) will war against spiritual experiences and faith. That is the battle we face daily.

Knowing that God is good, that He is the Life and the Resurrection, and that He is Salvation - - all these things logically follow and must happen.

As He said to His disciples, the Son of Man "must" be delivered and crucified, and raise Himself up. by saying "must be" He indicates that it is an inescapable logical conclusion.

perhaps you are confusing "logic and intellect" with unbelief?
Because if you begin with a false premise you naturally come to false conclusions, so the man who does not believe, his intellect and reasoning arrives at falsehood.

Christianity is not a belief that encourages stupidity. The scripture does not tell us not to use our mind, rather, it commands us to do so. There is neither spiritual nor earthly value in ignorance!

why is it written, we have the mind of Christ, if we are not supposed to actively employ our minds? Those who teach to follow feelings in your heart at the expense of reason and intellect are setting up the sheep to be deceived.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

child-like faith?
Amen:

"Let This Mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus!" (Phil 2:5 AV)​

​

And Amen.

 

[posthuman]

How do you intellectually explain the experience of salvation and/ or the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues? How do you logically explain Lazarus being raised from the dead, or long fasts to seek God? Where does the intellect come in when praying for your child’s salvation, or a friend’s healing? It’s part of our human nature to fiercely explain how things happen. In fact our flesh (mind, will, emotions, intellect, reasoning) will war against spiritual experiences and faith. That is the battle we face daily.

Isaiah 1:18​

"Come now, and let us reason together," ​

Says the LORD, ​

"Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool."​

​

if you read and believe this, and reason from it with your intellect, the logical conclusion is that Lazarus must be raised, that there would be speaking tongues in the early church and false, deceptive copies of it in the later days, that immersion in the Spirit would accompany salvation, and that fasting would be useful in drawing near to God.

it is only when one has false premises and unbelief that their thoughts are darkened. if you walk with God you will not shut off your mind but use it rightly - He did not err when He created us with a brain!

 

[posthuman]

P_rehbein,

I think the quote above (in my post) was from you quoting someone else... but I was in a hurry and couldn't find the original quote.

Sorry about any confusion.



Have a great weekend.

.

see what i quoted above, for source of quoted quotation