Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
The bible declares that those who believe the gospel are sealed by the Holy Spirit. How does one know? Look no further than the scriptures.
True belief in the Gospel is a fruit of the work of the Holy Spirit but there are many who have a spurious belief in the Gospel and are never saved. Heart knowledge is more important than head knowledge and a simple mental agreeance on certain facts of the Gospel without a supernatural change of heart does not equate to saving faith which is confirmed in the Scriptures.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
It has been proven wrong with Scripture all over this sight. Still the hard core refuse to accept the Word.
it is hard to take what you say seriously when you can not even spell correctly.

If you seriously believe that I am in error then you are commanded to correct me with the Scriptures for they are given for this reason (2 Tim 3:16) and failure to do so will prove that you do not really love me (1 Jn 3:17).

The core of this argument lays in the question whether man is spiritually dead after the Fall and if he is then what can such dead men do besides be dead?

1716355839702.jpeg
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
This doesn't deal with the details in the first 3 verses under discussion. You can just as easily be compounding error as proof-texting truth.

1 Cor 1:21 says God saves those who believe the message. Message > belief > salvation. No gifted faith here.

Rom 10:17 says faith/belief [results] from [something] heard. Can't believe something we haven't heard. Message > Belief of Message. No gifted faith here.

Rom 4:9 is made clear by Rom 4:3 which says Abraham's believed God and it (his belief/faith) was credited to him for righteousness. This is belief (of what God said to him in Gen12 & 15) resulting in his belief in God and what God spoke credited to him for righteousness. God speaks > Abraham believes God > God credits Abraham's belief for righteousness. No gifted faith here.

The above just as the prior 3 verses seem to me to more readily say the content of God's Message/Word/Good News is the gift that we can believe, which in effect through a bit of simplification can say the belief is a gift. He gives us The Faith (Message) which we believe/have faith in. If not for the gift of the Word, we could not believe/have faith in the Word = in effect our faith is a gift because what we have faith in is a gift. God gives us The Faith for us to have Faith in.

The Faith authored and perfected by Jesus Christ (Heb12:2) was delivered to us in finality by the time Jude was written (Jude 1:3). The phrase "the faith [of] the gospel (good news)" can legitimately be translated as The Faith/The Good News or the Faith from the source being the Good News/Message. The Faith = The Good News or The Good News (heard) > The Faith.
Abraham was granted the gift of faith, it was accounted to him in the same way righteousness is imputed through the faith that God grants as an instrument to receive it.

Rom 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.

Men are spiritually dead and first need to be born again by grace to be able to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3) let alone believe or choose it.

The process that God uses to grant this faith is though the Gospel being heard.

Act 16:14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Unfortunately, Paul was discussing in the letter to the Romans. That the way that God exercises
His divine management of humanity, which is a mystery.

Your quotation from Colossians is concerned with the revelation of the Christ.

Here is the text again.

Romans 11
For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. Oh, the depth of the riches,
both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Paul stated, God's judgements and management of humanity cannot be understood.
God's judgement is not a mystery. Romans 1-3 and other Scriptures clearly state that God hands people over to the evil they love to make them more accountable, to fill up the measure of their sin, store wrath for the day of wrath and fatten them up for His just slaughter.

Romans 3:5 even states that the unrighteousness of men demonstrates the righteousness of God and Paul states in Acts 17:31 that God s judgement is coming upon those who are not in Christ and this is guaranteed by His resurrection.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
it's no good saying doesn't choose by race, He chose the Jews.

It was the descendants of Isaac who rejected our Lord. They are enemies of the gospel for your sake but as touching ELECTION they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the call and gifts of God cannot be revoked.

If God reneges on His promise to Israel He might renege on His promise to YOU, He might say to the church "I commanded you to preach the gospel to every creature but 2, 000 years later and you haven't done good, behold I will cast you off and chooses another people"

God won't renege on His promise.

If Israel had not rejected Christ YOU could not be saved, So even their greatest sin has brought forth the greatest blessing ... that is how ELECTION works.
as I've already stated, the true Jew is not one who is circumcised of the flesh but of the heart regardless of their nationality (Rom 2:28-29) and in the New Covenant there is no longer any distinction nut all are one (Gal 3:28-29).

In the Old Covenant, God had a very small remnant among the nation of Israel who would not bow to idols. The promises of God were to the spiritual seed and not those of the flesh.

Rom_9:8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.

Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? "I HAVE RESERVED FOR MYSELF SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."
Rom 11:5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

If you look though at the Old Testament through the lens of fulfilment of the New you will get greater clarity.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
But these scriptures do not show that God predestined this for man. It is true that God hates sin, He faithfully warned the man "you'll die" But that does not say that God predestined man's fall. He foreknew but He did not predestine sin ... what He predestined was salvation.
Jud 1:4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:8 and "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE." They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

Rom 9:22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

God who is supremely sovereign, eternal and outside of time decreed all things that come to pass, even the entry of evil by the choice of man at the temptation of the devil to demonstrate His holy hatred for evil and His holy love in saving His people from that evil in Jesus Christ. If this were not so there would be no way for anyone to know and glorify His holy attributes.

Gen 50:20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Obviously, no one would believe in Jesus without being granted that ability to believe by God.

Yet, there are other factors at work in why someone would believe and ten others may not believe.

There are countries in the world where a Christian conversion are rare.

Wealth also may be a limiting factor, the poor seem to be favored.

Growing up in a solid Christian family is very favorable.

Here is a good example, the Bereans were highlighted because they studied the scripture.
Whereas the Corinthians were in all kinds of strife with Paul and so were the Galatians.

I think a conversion is a deep mystery.
God has chosen a number which no man can number from all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues (Rev 7:9) to be His people and they are brought to Him through the preaching of the Gospel which to them is an aroma of life unto life but to many others the hearing of the Gospel makes them more accountable and ends up being an aroma of death unto death (2 Cor 2:15-16).
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
He did not decree the sin He solemnly warned against the sin. This is your supposition creeping in again.

You quote the flood and say God damned them all except for Noah and co

What do you do with Peter who says that after Christ was raised He went and preached to those who perished before the flood?

....y'all quickly skate over scriptures like that.
God indeed decrees all things that come to pass otherwise prophecy would be impossible. He being light and no darkness within Him (1 Jn 1:5) even decreed the evil that came into this world for His greater glory.

KJV Isa_45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Christ before His incarnation ministered through Noah to those before the Flood and after His death went to the abode of the dead in the bosom of Abraham and preached to those on the other side of Hades the righteous judgement they deserved.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Jesus said "many"

I believe in election ... Abraham was elected, the first one. But others were saved. Lot was not the elect. Election is to be the means of blessing,
Jesus said many were called but few were chosen/elected. What does Scripture say is the basis of their election?
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
It is Christ's righteousness that was imputed to Abraham for his faith.
Abraham was imputed righteousness because the faith through which it is imputed was accounted/imputed to him to be righteous.

Faith is a gift of God's grace by which men are saved (Eph 2:8-9)

Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
I answered but you have never experienced God as I have so what I post is foreign to you.
you have not yet told me why you know that you are going to Heaven and where do you look for assurance of this.

The Scriptures tell us to make our election and calling sure, to search our hearts to see if we be of the faith and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Are you afraid to test yourself with the Scriptures to see if you are truly saved or do you think you are saved because you repeated some prayer given to you?
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
Here is what you stated.

"Scripture needs to always be taken in its immediate and overall context"

So why do you cherry pick verses from the letter to the Romans. Then interpret these verses
to support your theology of Calvinism.

For example, read the verse below.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Talk about ignoring the context.

Here is the context of Romans 2 to the end of Romans 11.

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel,
pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they
did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works
.

Now read, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated", within that given context.

How can you utter, "Scripture needs to always be taken in its immediate and overall context"

When you immediately depart from the context of Romans chapter 2 to chapter 11.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed!
Can you please tell me why you completely ignored the verse I posted in Luke 10:21 which proved that God does not, never has and never will desire the salivation of those He eternally hates and keeps them hardened to the truth to glorify His perfectly good, holy, righteous, just wrath?
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
A ridiculous assessment of the passage.

Jesus is rejoicing in the REVEALING......not the hiding. Obviously.
Scripture interprets Scripture and what Jesus said about parables reveals that these simple picture stories were given as judgement to prove the judicial blindness and hardness of heart of those who heard them in fulfilment of Isaiah's prophecy and Christ rejoiced in the goodness of this judgement in Luke 10:21.

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
Mat 13:12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'HEARING YOU WILL HEAR AND SHALL NOT UNDERSTAND, AND SEEING YOU WILL SEE AND NOT PERCEIVE;
Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEARTS OF THIS PEOPLE HAVE GROWN DULL. THEIR EARS ARE HARD OF HEARING, AND THEIR EYES THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, LEST THEY SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEARTS AND TURN, SO THAT I SHOULD HEAL THEM.'
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
 

maxamir

Active member
Mar 8, 2024
696
86
28
God's choice or man's choice?

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Eph_1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
 

Rhomphaeam

Active member
Dec 14, 2021
832
218
43
England
www.nblc.church
God's choice or man's choice?

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.

Eph_1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
In your biblical scheme to ''adoption' then it is a matter of God's sovereignty because it is His foreknowledge. To the matter of obedience in following after Christ taking up our cross as He chose to do in obedience to the Father, [it] is a matter of 'desiring' and is an implied and undoubted choosing in the volitional meaning of 'to choose'.

Calvinism is the sovereignty of God part and obedience to Christ in our walks is our choosing to please the Father. That 'choosing' is predicated on a volitional direction in our own possession.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
113
Examples of what? What limitations? What cannot be known? You seem to be saying God is not omniscient.
Omniscient defined by scripture not man’s logic. If something can be known, God knows it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,097
3,683
113
Israel was a shadow and type of the true Israel of God (Gal 6:16) in the New Covenant which fulfilled the promise to Abraham that in him all nations would be blessed and not simply the one and confirms that God saves by grace and not by race.

View attachment 263992
Repkacement theology at its finest.