Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[PaulThomson]

Calmador said:
One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work

No idea where you got that idea. It's not accurate. 99% of the arguments against reformed doctrine (which I prefer to call it) are Strawmen.

Have you never heard Calvinists support their Total Depravity petal by arguing that regeneration must precede faith because the natural mqn is totally depraved and cannot believe unto salvation, So you must be regenerated first and given Christ's faith to believe unto salvation. And if you believed before regeneration you would be doing something to be saved and your own faith would be a work of your own that saves you. You would be claiming to save yourself and be stealing glory from God.

Have you never argued like that yourself?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

you have not personally answered the question given to you. How do you know you are sealed with the Holy Spirit?

I answered but you have never experienced God as I have so what I post is foreign to you.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Not if you are God and had determined the end and is going to make sure it comes to pass. Ever read Revelation? You know the end without knowing all things in between.

Being what I am naturally by birth and how I was taught in Mishnah to begin with the Torah, then the Prophets, and finally the Psalms. I read the New Testament the same way from Matthew to Revelation. So by the time I got to the end I already knew everything between from the beginning.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Were God’s Elect chosen under the covenant of grace? I‘d say, “yes.”

More so to God's Mercy because God knew we were going to be sinners when Jesus was Elected before the foundation of the world to bring a sacrifice to our sins. We did not get what we deserved, which is Mercy, but got what we now have by the Act of Grace upon the Cross.

 

[NightTwister]

You said "The first rule of debate..."
Which has nothing to do with "Sola Scriptura."

 

[NightTwister]

Calmador said:
One of my biggest qualms with a common Calvinist line of thinking is that Faith is a work



Have you never heard Calvinists support their Total Depravity petal by arguing that regeneration must precede faith because the natural mqn is totally depraved and cannot believe unto salvation, So you must be regenerated first and given Christ's faith to believe unto salvation. And if you believed before regeneration you would be doing something to be saved and your own faith would be a work of your own that saves you. You would be claiming to save yourself and be stealing glory from God.

Have you never argued like that yourself?

You are inaccurately stating reformed doctrine. Nice strawman you built there. Shame if anything happened to it.

 

[cv5]

Everyone needs to hear this....especially @maxamir

God Weeps For The Lost! Therefore, Predestination is false, and The Ark is Christ!
Stephen A. Chronister
Nov. 5, 2023
2 Peter 3:9; 2 Samuel 6:1-15
SERIES: The Book of Joel

Is God A Liar And A Murderer? That is Satan’s lie... but how do Calvinists respond?
Stephen A. Chronister
Oct. 22, 2023
Genesis 3; Luke 22:39-46
SERIES: The Book of Joel

God Allows Evil! Why? Because it’s the right thing to do. He gave us Free Will!
Stephen A. Chronister
Oct. 8, 2023
John 17:11-12; Luke 22:39-46
SERIES: The Book of Joel

The God Of Freedom! He cannot be the God of Predestination and no freedom!
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 24, 2023
John 8:31-36; Matthew 26:36-39
SERIES: The Book of Joel

Is God Evil? Is Jesus Evil? If He cannot have evil thoughts, does He determine evil?
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 10, 2023
Jeremiah 19:5; Job 1:8-12
SERIES: The Book of Joel

What Are We To Overcome? If there’s Predestination, How much evil does God have?
Stephen A. Chronister
Aug. 27, 2023
Jeremiah 19:4-5; Job 1:6
SERIES: The Book of Joel

 

[PaulThomson]

You are inaccurately stating reformed doctrine. Nice strawman you built there. Shame if anything happened to it.

So, there are a lot of calvinists inaccurately stating reformed doctrine to defend LOUPI.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Everyone needs to hear this....especially @maxamir

God Weeps For The Lost! Therefore, Predestination is false, and The Ark is Christ!
Stephen A. Chronister
Nov. 5, 2023
2 Peter 3:9; 2 Samuel 6:1-15
SERIES: The Book of Joel

Is God A Liar And A Murderer? That is Satan’s lie... but how do Calvinists respond?
Stephen A. Chronister
Oct. 22, 2023
Genesis 3; Luke 22:39-46
SERIES: The Book of Joel

God Allows Evil! Why? Because it’s the right thing to do. He gave us Free Will!
Stephen A. Chronister
Oct. 8, 2023
John 17:11-12; Luke 22:39-46
SERIES: The Book of Joel

The God Of Freedom! He cannot be the God of Predestination and no freedom!
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 24, 2023
John 8:31-36; Matthew 26:36-39
SERIES: The Book of Joel

Is God Evil? Is Jesus Evil? If He cannot have evil thoughts, does He determine evil?
Stephen A. Chronister
Sept. 10, 2023
Jeremiah 19:5; Job 1:8-12
SERIES: The Book of Joel

What Are We To Overcome? If there’s Predestination, How much evil does God have?
Stephen A. Chronister
Aug. 27, 2023
Jeremiah 19:4-5; Job 1:6
SERIES: The Book of Joel

This is not towards everyone who promotes the Reformed doctrine but I think we can clearly see the 5 to 7 specific Reformers on this forum that this will testify about. But what is it do they promote? 5 doctrines of Grace. But are any of them showing Grace to the world? When you claim God is Grace while simultaneously promoting that God is purposefully sending more than 80% of His Own Offspring to an eternal Hell that never ends it makes me wonder do they know what Grace is about? It is by far the most cretinous idealism for a doctrine that has ever been formatted and there's some seriously stupid definitions for the character of God out there.

Jesus said to be a Follower of Him is to be like Him.

If a person proclaims 5 doctrines of Grace one would expect to be seeing the most gracious person on planet Earth.

But you only see actions that David described as demonic.

You truly have to be born into this doctrine because I have asked people to VOLUNTEER and JOIN it and they reply if they want to act like the world they would go back to being what they were before Jesus changed them.

I am a Jew, who come from the Jews who denied Jesus, and I do not understand the Reformed at all. It's as if they are trying to be JEWS!

 

[cv5]

and there's some seriously stupid definitions for the character of God out there.

There sure are. Scary really. And ignorant.

Just a thought:
The "bad" Pharisees may have thought that works saves them. They may have thought that physical circumcision saves them. They may have thought that being the physical offspring of Abraham saves them.

But these are IMO merely incidental to the underlying reality:
They essentially thought that they were FOREORDAINED/PREDESTINED to salvation. Really, that is what is going on behind the scenes here.

God, Jesus, John and Paul say otherwise.

Mat 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Luk 4:25
But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
Luk 4:28
And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Luk 4:29
And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.


Rom 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Heb 4:2
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Rom 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[NightTwister]

So, there are a lot of calvinists inaccurately stating reformed doctrine to defend LOUPI.

Not likely. It's more likely that you're hearing what you want to hear.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jesus said "many"

I believe in election ... Abraham was elected, the first one. But others were saved. Lot was not the elect. Election is to be the means of blessing,

Election in the case of delivering the divine promise is very different to an election to salvation.

Some folk would have us believe that Abraham was the only elect person, in his generation.

They also quote the following.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

The verse is not about individual election for salvation.

In the given context of Romans 2 to Romans 11, Jacob represents God's promise, by faith.
And Esau represents humanity (the Jews) striving for self righteousness through works.

Context matters in the letter to the Romans.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace (Jacob), it is no longer on the basis of works (Esau), since otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Paul is not teaching individual election in Romans 9:13, far from it.

 

[Inquisitor]

Not so dear friend ... the covenant of Moses was works based but the law [Paul teaches] did not annul the covenant of Abraham which is grace through faith.

Which is exactly what Paul revealed to us in the letter to the Romans.

Calvinism suffers a catastrophic failure when it quotes from the letter to the Romans.

Paul is teaching that Israel failed, grafted out, for not understanding the promise that was through grace.

Paul is not teaching the sovereignty of God over election to salvation, in the letter to the Romans.

How can folk in the 21st Century fail to understand what Paul is telling us in Romans?

Romans 11:31-32
However, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they
did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

 

[Inquisitor]

Scripture needs to always be taken in its immediate and overall context and the verse you use to say that God does not desire any to perish is said to those to whom it is written which is Christians and not every single person in the world without exception. Such a view makes God out to be frustrated and not able to do what He decrees He will do.

If God does not want any to perish then why did Christ rejoice below and thanked His Father for hiding the truth from many and even said it was good to do so?

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

Here is what you stated.

"Scripture needs to always be taken in its immediate and overall context"

So why do you cherry pick verses from the letter to the Romans. Then interpret these verses
to support your theology of Calvinism.

For example, read the verse below.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

Talk about ignoring the context.

Here is the context of Romans 2 to the end of Romans 11.

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness,
attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel,
pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they
did not pursue it by faith, but as though they could by works.

Now read, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated", within that given context.

How can you utter, "Scripture needs to always be taken in its immediate and overall context"

When you immediately depart from the context of Romans chapter 2 to chapter 11.

Paul is explaining why Israel failed!

 

[cv5]

If God does not want any to perish then why did Christ rejoice below and thanked His Father for hiding the truth from many and even said it was good to do so?

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.

A ridiculous assessment of the passage.

Jesus is rejoicing in the REVEALING......not the hiding. Obviously.

 

[Eli1]

This is not towards everyone who promotes the Reformed doctrine but I think we can clearly see the 5 to 7 specific Reformers on this forum that this will testify about. But what is it do they promote? 5 doctrines of Grace. But are any of them showing Grace to the world? When you claim God is Grace while simultaneously promoting that God is purposefully sending more than 80% of His Own Offspring to an eternal Hell that never ends it makes me wonder do they know what Grace is about? It is by far the most cretinous idealism for a doctrine that has ever been formatted and there's some seriously stupid definitions for the character of God out there.

Jesus said to be a Follower of Him is to be like Him.

If a person proclaims 5 doctrines of Grace one would expect to be seeing the most gracious person on planet Earth.

But you only see actions that David described as demonic.

You truly have to be born into this doctrine because I have asked people to VOLUNTEER and JOIN it and they reply if they want to act like the world they would go back to being what they were before Jesus changed them.

I am a Jew, who come from the Jews who denied Jesus, and I do not understand the Reformed at all. It's as if they are trying to be JEWS!

My brother, I feel like I’ve known you my whole life.
Glory to God for giving use peace and joy!

 

[Magenta]

Yes, I believe he has placed those limits to work within the time frame he created. We see examples over and over in scripture. God is perfect in knowledge. If something can be known, God knows it, our thoughts, the hairs on our head, the number of grains of sand, etc.

Examples of what? What limitations? What cannot be known? You seem to be saying God is not omniscient.

 

[maxamir]

Thank you. Yes, I’ve always believed that God predestined and chose before …. but could it be that God chose His Elect back then because of His foreknowledge and approval of them? By the way, I love this topic of election—exciting! —selah

the Scriptures clearly tell us that He has mercy upon whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens (Rom 9:18) and that He chose His elect according to the good pleasure of His will to the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:4-6) and before they were born (Rom 9:11) which would exclude anything man had done lest he have something in which to boast before God (1 Cor 1:27-29).

If you love this topic then you will love reading the book below.

The Doctrine of Election - AW Pink

 

[maxamir]

Judas did drink of the cups in Luke 22. And he definitely was not saved. Nothing new here.

BUT.....those there who drank the cups in commitment were all saved.

those who received the Holy Spirit were indeed all saved.

 

[maxamir]

Israel or "spiritual" Israel is not the body of Christ. Romans 9 is all about God's physical people Israel. Some people confuse the two.

Israel was a shadow and type of the true Israel of God (Gal 6:16) in the New Covenant which fulfilled the promise to Abraham that in him all nations would be blessed and not simply the one and confirms that God saves by grace and not by race.