Is it ok for Christian Men to be in ministry to immodest women?
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https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1790012337467834684
Pastor John-Paul Miller says he tried raising his wife from the dead after visiting her body 4 times, says he thought he was successful at one point. Miller is accused of harassing and abusing his wife Mica Miller who ended up taking her own life. During a eulogy, Miller says he visited her body 4 times and tried to raise her from the dead. At one point, he thought he successfully raised her from the dead when he saw a woman who looked like Mica at the mall. The woman at the mall was actually one of Mica’s sisters. “Each time it still didn’t hit me, I thought she was going to wake up. I even tried to raise her from the dead one time this week.”
Pastor John-Paul Miller says he tried raising his wife from the dead after visiting her body 4 times, says he thought he was successful at one point. Miller is accused of harassing and abusing his wife Mica Miller who ended up taking her own life. During a eulogy, Miller says he visited her body 4 times and tried to raise her from the dead. At one point, he thought he successfully raised her from the dead when he saw a woman who looked like Mica at the mall. The woman at the mall was actually one of Mica’s sisters. “Each time it still didn’t hit me, I thought she was going to wake up. I even tried to raise her from the dead one time this week.”
There is an impression of attractiveness in a modest heart, and I think Michaelangelo's David captures that appeal. And similarly, arrogance can't be hidden for very long because illusions are characteristically difficult to maintain for very much enduring span of time.
Proverbs 26:
23Like glaze covering an earthen vessel
are burningb lips and a wicked heart.
24A hateful man disguises himself with his speech,
but he lays up deceit in his heart.
25When he speaks graciously, do not believe him,
for seven abominations fill his heart.
26Though his hatred is concealed by deception,
his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
27He who digs a pit will fall into it,
and he who rolls a stone will have it roll back on him.
28A lying tongue hates those it crushes,
and a flattering mouth causes ruin.
Footnotes:
23 b Hebrew; LXX smooth
There were two gentlemen of Noah's sons who, acknowledging their tendency toward the flesh, walked into their father's tent backward and covered his nakedness even though the other gathered them to "come and see."
I like to consider this true also among men, even if I might 'notice' the latter's more than the two modest men, but as with a third of angels falling, two-thirds remain faithful and true.
Proverbs 26:
23Like glaze covering an earthen vessel
are burningb lips and a wicked heart.
24A hateful man disguises himself with his speech,
but he lays up deceit in his heart.
25When he speaks graciously, do not believe him,
for seven abominations fill his heart.
26Though his hatred is concealed by deception,
his wickedness will be exposed in the assembly.
27He who digs a pit will fall into it,
and he who rolls a stone will have it roll back on him.
28A lying tongue hates those it crushes,
and a flattering mouth causes ruin.
Footnotes:
23 b Hebrew; LXX smooth
There were two gentlemen of Noah's sons who, acknowledging their tendency toward the flesh, walked into their father's tent backward and covered his nakedness even though the other gathered them to "come and see."
I like to consider this true also among men, even if I might 'notice' the latter's more than the two modest men, but as with a third of angels falling, two-thirds remain faithful and true.
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Greetings! Nice to see you back/around still!
Even in a "public" setting, it would only be appropriate for a man to greet such a woman or have a brief conversation with her, but that's about it. A wise Christian man would not allow himself to be in any private setting with such a woman, nor to "minister" to her, but would either bring in a mature Christian woman to join him, or "send" the person to Christian women for ministry.
That said, many male Christian leaders aren't wise, or are led by their flesh instead of by the Spirit.
Even in a "public" setting, it would only be appropriate for a man to greet such a woman or have a brief conversation with her, but that's about it. A wise Christian man would not allow himself to be in any private setting with such a woman, nor to "minister" to her, but would either bring in a mature Christian woman to join him, or "send" the person to Christian women for ministry.
That said, many male Christian leaders aren't wise, or are led by their flesh instead of by the Spirit.
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The husband and wife team is a good model for ministry IMHO. They should not minister separately as temptation may become an issue. There are many pastors who do counseling and when alone with women it destroys the best of intentions.
Ministry is a broad term though.
There's a difference between preaching the gospel to every creature and long term marriage counseling for instance.
Yes, every born again man woman and child is commanded to lead the lost of every age, and person to Christ, man, woman and child.
Jesus was our in example as we see with the woman at the well. I don't know that she was modest. We just know that she had a lot of husbands and guy friends. Jesus didn't forbid her to speak. He did not forbid the children to come unto Himself.
Ministry is a broad term though.
There's a difference between preaching the gospel to every creature and long term marriage counseling for instance.
Yes, every born again man woman and child is commanded to lead the lost of every age, and person to Christ, man, woman and child.
Jesus was our in example as we see with the woman at the well. I don't know that she was modest. We just know that she had a lot of husbands and guy friends. Jesus didn't forbid her to speak. He did not forbid the children to come unto Himself.
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I appreciate a lot of what you said. A verse came to mind also; ‘Beware you stand lest you fall.’ I think it is playing with fire to appreciate the beauty of another woman expecting not to lust after her. This reminds me of a an awesome verse when Job said,’ I have made a covenant with my eyes, then why should I look upon a young woman?(the original Hebrew wording says this).
What a rare man Job was. This is the kind of man many of us Christian women desire to be married to.
What a rare man Job was. This is the kind of man many of us Christian women desire to be married to.
Yes, Job was rare.... they even wrote a book about him... 
I agree that there are dangers of slipping.... we as flawed humans have "up" days, and "down" days, spiritual discipline-wise.
I'm certainly not advocating seeking out scantily clad young women, simply to enjoy the view... I simply wanted to make the point that a man who exercises spiritual discipline does not have to clap both hands over his eyes and run away screaming if a semi-naked woman walks by. It is possible to enjoy the beauty of God's creation without "losing it". Not everything has to lead to sex...
I also remember that younger men have a much more difficult time with sexual thoughts than we more, um, "seasoned" men do. I still believe that it all gets back to our spiritual/mental attitudes.
I agree that there are dangers of slipping.... we as flawed humans have "up" days, and "down" days, spiritual discipline-wise.
I'm certainly not advocating seeking out scantily clad young women, simply to enjoy the view... I simply wanted to make the point that a man who exercises spiritual discipline does not have to clap both hands over his eyes and run away screaming if a semi-naked woman walks by. It is possible to enjoy the beauty of God's creation without "losing it". Not everything has to lead to sex...
I also remember that younger men have a much more difficult time with sexual thoughts than we more, um, "seasoned" men do. I still believe that it all gets back to our spiritual/mental attitudes.
Yes, Job was rare.... they even wrote a book about him...
I agree that there are dangers of slipping.... we as flawed humans have "up" days, and "down" days, spiritual discipline-wise.
I'm certainly not advocating seeking out scantily clad young women, simply to enjoy the view... I simply wanted to make the point that a man who exercises spiritual discipline does not have to clap both hands over his eyes and run away screaming if a semi-naked woman walks by. It is possible to enjoy the beauty of God's creation without "losing it". Not everything has to lead to sex...
I also remember that younger men have a much more difficult time with sexual thoughts than we more, um, "seasoned" men do. I still believe that it all gets back to our spiritual/mental attitudes.
I agree that there are dangers of slipping.... we as flawed humans have "up" days, and "down" days, spiritual discipline-wise.
I'm certainly not advocating seeking out scantily clad young women, simply to enjoy the view... I simply wanted to make the point that a man who exercises spiritual discipline does not have to clap both hands over his eyes and run away screaming if a semi-naked woman walks by. It is possible to enjoy the beauty of God's creation without "losing it". Not everything has to lead to sex...
I also remember that younger men have a much more difficult time with sexual thoughts than we more, um, "seasoned" men do. I still believe that it all gets back to our spiritual/mental attitudes.
Well, everybody has their own hang-ups, I suppose. Good luck with finding a man that does not notice a beautiful woman. Even gay men notice and appreciate a beautiful woman.
I agree with @Lynx .... there is a back story here.
And, as a humorous extension to this story... my wife used to get miffed if she thought I noticed another woman. I told her that it is just natural to notice "attractive" things, whether people or scenery or cars....whatever. I told her that women looked at men almost as much as men looked at women. She disagreed.
A few weeks later, we were driving down the road, and there was a young, buff guy running down the edge of a park area.... no shirt, little nylon running shorts, etc.... as we went by, I noticed out of the corner of my eye my wife swiveling her head to "notice" him as we went by. I didn't say anything... didn't bother me a bit.
The next time the topic came up of men noticing women, I reiterated my statement that women watch men just like men watch women... she said "no they don't".... I said, "you mean, like that guy that was jogging in the park a few days ago?"
Her face turned a little red, then she started laughing (along with me)..... she said, "well, I guess women notice, too...." We've had no further issues with that topic....
Noticing is normal.... what you DO with that "noticing" in your mind is where the problems can start.
I agree with @Lynx .... there is a back story here.
And, as a humorous extension to this story... my wife used to get miffed if she thought I noticed another woman. I told her that it is just natural to notice "attractive" things, whether people or scenery or cars....whatever. I told her that women looked at men almost as much as men looked at women. She disagreed.
A few weeks later, we were driving down the road, and there was a young, buff guy running down the edge of a park area.... no shirt, little nylon running shorts, etc.... as we went by, I noticed out of the corner of my eye my wife swiveling her head to "notice" him as we went by. I didn't say anything... didn't bother me a bit.
The next time the topic came up of men noticing women, I reiterated my statement that women watch men just like men watch women... she said "no they don't".... I said, "you mean, like that guy that was jogging in the park a few days ago?"
Her face turned a little red, then she started laughing (along with me)..... she said, "well, I guess women notice, too...." We've had no further issues with that topic....
Noticing is normal.... what you DO with that "noticing" in your mind is where the problems can start.
It’s not a hang up, that’s just your opinion. Noticing and looking are two different things. I would see it as disrespectful and inconsiderate of my husband’s feelings to stare at some buff guy; if I accidentally did this I would apologise to him and then address it by training myself to look away from such men; it’s called ‘the lust of the eye in scripture, it may not be the lust of the flesh but it’s the lust of the eye and it is not Godly.
What I don’t understand is, why it didn’t bother you that your wife was staring at the guy. It seems that it did bother you, which is why you noticed her doing it.
What I don’t understand is, why it didn’t bother you that your wife was staring at the guy. It seems that it did bother you, which is why you noticed her doing it.
That can work, not only a woman or man, but those who are qualified if we are talking about certain specifics.
Another option is to require the woman to go with her man together as a couple if it's marriage counseling.
I agree in that I think it unwise for someone to send their college students to some beach for spring break to "share the gospel", or hang out at the bars to "do the Lord's work."
They that win souls are wise. Daniel 12:3
The Lord sent His disciples out by twos to spread the gospel. Door to door is the proven method, canvassing every home in each community. I was just talking to a believer who likes to go to nursing homes to get men and women saved. I wish we all would.
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Whether there is a personal connection for @Butterflyyy or me or anyone else is not relevant.
The fact of the matter that even before marriage guarding your heart and mind is essential for future devotion in marriage.
There are so many principles that are lost in this modern Christian culture, a culture which is very far removed from what God desires for us.
There is a good case to be made for making a marriage a fortress and to cherish one another. I am completely unconvinced that admiring or appreciating the beauty of someone else while married is benign.
Cherish
I have not read it, but I think it brings a fresh look at what has become acceptable behaviour amongst Christians.
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