Salvation is a Free Gift.

[homwardbound]

Your response is non-sewuitur. Whether Judas Isacriott was ultimately saved or not is irrelevant to whether He was drawn by the Father to Jesus. He came to Jesus, and only those drawn could come. Therefore He must have been drawn. Now, I predict, you are going to need to redefine "come" in a special esoteric way to rescue your precious doctrines, even if that means rejecting what scripture clearly says...

No matter what, Someone had to fulfill scripture, the betrayal of Jesus, whether it would be Judas or not. Did not Peter, betray Jesus as knowing Jesus, three times as predicted would do that by Jesus?
He denied God, in front of people that said to him, hey you are one of them aren't you?

Did Peter get forgiven and Judas too, by God ( does God forgive, has God forgiven you too) in that final sacrifice of Jesus for the whole world in the last shedding of blood that God is forever now pleased with. (1 John 2:1-4)?
We all are forgiven by God through Son on that cross for us all to believe, receive and see new in love to all in mercy and truth as given us first, you think? Or not!!!!

I see this, to rest in the trust fund of God only


Hebrews 4:9-13
Authorized (King James) Version


9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

We all know, Peter believed God and yet was in fear. /// It might be the same for Judas, in fear, yet was a sinner as we all are or have been and can still be, one doing it again, our sin again that one might not want anymore. Yet, being in unredeemed bodies of insecure flesh and blood, that needs new, born new, life's in God's Spirit and Truth leading them. Which is by belief to God only, at least this I see, without the cross, I would remain lost, having no chance ever at all to be saved as have presently forever is given us to stand in belief to see or not. Thanks

 

[cv5]

Okay I get it, you think God needs your help in salvation, that you have to "do" something to be saved. You believe you have something to boast about. You reduce Gods glory to lift up your own. I get it. I disagree and KNOW it's ALL God that saved me and I did 0%. We disagree. Have a great day.

You have no idea what I "think", "believe" or anything else.
So quit pretending to have ESP and can read my mind.

And no, you did not address the questions offered either.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Does God not GRANT us repentance? Look I want to be very clear, I don't disagree with our choice, nor what we go through as these things take place in real time. What I am disagreeing with is exactly how much credit we get, and how big a role does our choice play. I think raising that too high is wrong and to believe that I have anything at all to do with my salvation is as wrong as I could be. I agree we are told clearly that we do choose, you have to ignore the called, drawn, predestine, total sovereignty over all creation verses along with the "no man can come to me, no man seeks God", "Salvation is of God least any man boast" verses that fill all of scripture. We have to take scripture as a whole and while I have no clue how Gods sovereignty works with our choice to bring about His perfect plan, what I can tell you is it was not my choice that saved me. It was Him alone that saved me, after I fell as short as a man could.

26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

27 that they should seek God


God did create during Creation a way for us to seek Him. Just pointing out the facts even though we don't do it, God still created it that way. So that shows we have some responsibility. And fulfilling God's Plan with some responsibility still in no shape takes away from God it's all Him Who is saving us.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Every BIBLICAL example of preaching the Gospel and HEARING everyone has understood it.

But some let it lead to Faith and some reject it.

You do not reject something UNLESS you understand it.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Absolutely untrue. And not just spiritual things. I can look back in my life when I realize I made a mistake when I rejected something that I did not understand. I thought I did, but I didn't.

In the example I provided they understood Stephen was blaming them for the Death of Christ and everything else. They stoned him over it.

 

[cv5]

Every BIBLICAL example of preaching the Gospel and HEARING everyone has understood it.

But some let it lead to Faith and some reject it.

You do not reject something UNLESS you understand it.

Actually......it has much to do with "choosing" willful ignorance.
They do not want to even so much to hear, let alone understand.

Jhn 8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Yes God is the Prime mover first of all doing the calling of course. He is the author of the Word (and finisher of salvation).
Nevertheless, this applies in all cases.....because God will not violate a free will decision.

Joe 2:32
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.
Act 2:21
And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved.'
Rom 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

The Jewish wedding ritual is unequivocal: the bride may choose or refuse the cup of the betrothal of the marriage covenant.
As can we choose or refuse the New Covenant cup of marriage to the Bridegroom.

 

[PaulThomson]

I disagree with just about everything you’ve posted: with the wrong foundation, everything built upon that foundation becomes wrong too.

First, in a prior post, I asked you for clarification as to what you called my “main error” - the timing of the resurrection and raising according to your description of it- but you were unable to make that clarification. You further went on to erroneously say that it was I who was trying to skirt replying to you by raising that question. So, since you failed to provide it, you’ve completely invalidated your whole post, and as such, it deserves no further reply from me. Nevertheless, I will reply because I do not want to leave your statements (above) unrefuted so that others will not believe them to be correct.

My point was that the exact meaning of "the last day" whether a 24 hr day or a 1000 year day/time is not relevant to the argument here. The point is that both the saved and the unsaved are raised up/resurrected "at the last day", not just the saved. Now you are introducing a different argument: that resurrection only applies to resurrection in a glorified body and never applies to resurrection in a restored fallen body. And raised applies only to resurrection in a reconstituted corrupt body and never to resurrection in a glorified body. Bollocks, I say. I Cor. 6:14; 15:43, 44, 52; 2 Cor. 4:14 use raised of saints; and John 5:29; Acts 24:15 apply resurrection to both the saved and the unsaved.

John 6:37-39 "Everything the Father is giving Me will come to Me; and him that is coming to Me, I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And THIS is the will of the Father which sent Me, so that of everything which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And THIS is the will of Him who sent Me, so that everyone which sees the Son and believes on Him may have aeonous life; and I will raise Him up at the last day."

Firstly, Jesus in no wise casting out him that is coming to Jesus, and Jesus doing the Father's will instead of His own will was the Father's will, and the purpose of Jesus in no wise casting out him that is coming to Jesus, and Jesus doing the Father's will instead of His own will was so that (hina) of everything which the Father had given Jesus, Jesus should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
In other words, Jesus needed to do the Father's will and bear with whoever came to Him if He was going to inherit all that the Father wanted to keep all that the Father had given into His hands and win the right to raise the dead on the last day.. Since John 13:3 says that God had put all things into Jesus hands, this "raise it up" refers to all souls of all men, saved and unsaved. So that contradicts your claim that there is some special distinction between resurrection of men and raising up of men.

Secondly, esus in no wise casting out him that is coming to Jesus, and Jesus doing the Father's will instead of His own will was the Father's will, and the purpose of Jesus in no wise casting out him that is coming to Jesus, and Jesus doing the Father's will instead of His own will was so that (hina) everyone which sees the Jesus and believes on Jesus may have aeonous life; and Jesus will raise Him up at the last day."
In other words, Jesus needed to do the Father's will and bear with whoever came to Him ,so that they could observe Him, in order to come to believe on Him, and in believing they would know the Father and the Son (John 17:3); and Jesus would raise those believers up at the last day.

 

[brightfame52]

Every BIBLICAL example of preaching the Gospel and HEARING everyone has understood it.

But some let it lead to Faith and some reject it.

You do not reject something UNLESS you understand it.

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
How do you give someone hope? What is happening when you give someone joy? Explain those expressions to us. Do you unilaterally give hope and joy to someone, or doid they need to do something, like listening with an open mind, to be able to receive the hope and the joy?

Okay I get it, you think God needs your help in salvation, that you have to "do" something to be saved. You believe you have something to boast about. You reduce Gods glory to lift up your own. I get it. I disagree and KNOW it's ALL God that saved me and I did 0%. We disagree. Have a great day.

I get it. You are afraid to answer my question because it will reveal the fallacy of your claims. So you accuse the brethren and run for the hills.

PaulThomson said:
How do you give someone hope? What is happening when you give someone joy? Explain those expressions to us. Do you unilaterally give hope and joy to someone, or do they need to do something, like listening with an open mind, to be able to receive the hope and the joy?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

A spiritually dead person can hear the Gospel but he cant hear it with Spiritual discernment and understanding 2 Cor 2:14

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Why do you keep ignoring the verse before 2:14?

Verse 13 which things we also speak not in words taught by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit explaining spiritual things to spiritual men.

That is NOT PREACHING the Gospel, it's explaining Spiritual things that verse 14 cannot understand.

So the Gospel preached is different and can be understood by ALL WHO HEAR.

 

[PaulThomson]

Whether someone was of His "contemporary" or not had/has nothing to do with it. Jesus was speaking spiritual doctrine.

No. Jesus was speaking at a particular time in history to a particular audience before His death and resurrection..
Calvinists hate context

There is no such thing implied "that many of Jesus contemporizes who were drawn by the Father will not become saved.
That would be in direct violation to what the verses clearly state.

The verses clearly state that No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. The text describes many people coming to Jesus in cities, towns, villages, houses and wilderness. All of them must have been drawn to Jesus by the Father. To deny that ius a clear violation of what the gospels clearly state.

 

[rogerg]

My point was that the exact meaning of "the last day" whether a 24 hr day or a 1000 year day/time is not relevant to the argument here. The point is that both the saved and the unsaved are raised up/resurrected "at the last day", not just the saved. Now you are introducing a different argument: that resurrection only applies to resurrection in a glorified body and never applies to resurrection in a restored fallen body. And raised applies only to resurrection in a reconstituted corrupt body and never to resurrection in a glorified body. Bollocks, I say. I Cor. 6:14; 15:43, 44, 52; 2 Cor. 4:14 use raised of saints; and John 5:29; Acts 24:15 apply resurrection to both the saved and the unsaved.

Thanks for the reply but I am not going to continue with this subject except to say you seemed to have misunderstood my first point. It was that raised and resurrected are different things in terms of the last day.
Everything I wanted to say was said in my long post/reply to you.

 

[PaulThomson]

Thanks for the reply but I am not going to continue with this subject except to say you seemed to have misunderstood my first point. It was that raised and resurrected are different things in terms of the last day.

It seems I understood you fine. You claim one word refers to some different group from group the other word refers to. Now you are trying tom wiggle out by claiming to have been misunderstood. Or can you better explain what different things they refer to in terms of the last day?

 

[selahsays]

I am moved with the amount of confusion these days about the nature of our salvation. The answer to this question can be different depending on the denomination you attend, but I believe the Bible is clear if interpreted correctly. Salvation is a free gift, that is received through repentance and faith, and it was completely paid for by what Jesus Christ did for us on the cross. All we are required to do is accept it by faith.

You forgot to mention the most important thing—GRACE:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

- Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Pilgrimshope]

How do you give someone hope? What is happening when you give someone joy? Explain those expressions to us. Do you unilaterally give hope and joy to someone, or doid they need to do something, like listening with an open mind, to be able to receive the hope and the joy?

Some Have this translator

faith means “I never have to hear or accept what God said and do what he told me will save me soul , I’m predestined to be saved already I don’t need to obey Gods word like He said. He will work it out by faith “

“Im pre destined to be saved if you think you need to do something he told us to do you are the one who doesn’t understand faith.


Of course I’m not saying this I’m saying that’s what your dealing with that foundation one can be saved be ignoring what Jesus the savior said , because they have faith and it’s by grace

It’s hard to reason in an asylum lol

 

[Shepherd]

Acts 24
24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Felix heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit(the Comforter) was dealing with his heart, so much so that he "trembled". Yet he put it off. God offers the free gift of salvation, but we have to accept it by faith. That is not a "work". No "action" of any kind occurs. It takes place in the heart.

Acts 16:
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

 

[Pilgrimshope]

You forgot to mention the most important thing—GRACE:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

- Ephesians 2:8-9

amen “ nevertheless we don’t reject the foundation Paul explains bluntly for the sake of saying we’re saved by grace so we never need to do what he says

“Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.

And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Okay I get it, you think God needs your help in salvation, that you have to "do" something to be saved. You believe you have something to boast about. You reduce Gods glory to lift up your own. I get it. I disagree and KNOW it's ALL God that saved me and I did 0%. We disagree. Have a great day.

If God has taught you that you never need to think your part is to learn from him and obey his word

this isn’t actually God teaching you . If you don’t get it I realize that’s different but if you have been taught to accept a scripture saying “ your saved “ bit not the many many saying “ you need to act right because you are accountable for all you do still , so be merciful and repent “

If saying “im saved by grace “ requires us to reject how Jesus told us we are saved it’s not the right grace of it means you can’t accept his word it’s not from him

 

[Cameron143]

Acts 24
24And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ. 25And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee.

Felix heard the Gospel and the Holy Spirit(the Comforter) was dealing with his heart, so much so that he "trembled". Yet he put it off. God offers the free gift of salvation, but we have to accept it by faith. That is not a "work". No "action" of any kind occurs. It takes place in the heart.

Acts 16:
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

I don't see the heart mentioned anywhere in the passage. Neither do I see any mention of the Spirit.
Where the Spirit is working, the heart is pricked ..Acts 2:37. In addition, the mind and will are engaged. And the result is faith and salvation.
None of these elements are present. It is merely the response of the natural man.

 

[Lamar]

Whether someone was of His "contemporary" or not had/has nothing to do with it. Jesus was speaking spiritual doctrine.
There is no such thing implied "that many of Jesus contemporizes who were drawn by the Father will not become saved.
That would be in direct violation to what the verses clearly state.

Jesus committed that all who come to Him from God, and from God alone, He would unconditionally raise on the last day. Do you see the "no one can come to me" part, and the "I will raise him up on the last day" part? That leaves no room for dispute as to how, why, and what will happen, and to whom it will happen to.

[Jhn 6:44 ESV] 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Did you understand John 17:2?

Okay, I'm not going to keep going around in circles on this. The verses are clear - you've read into them something that isn't there, and by repeating myself further at this point, isn't going to help.

"That leaves no room for dispute as to how, why, and what will happen, and to whom it will happen to."

"No room for dispute"???

Here is the verse: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

How does the Father choose who will be drawn to Jesus? “I the LORD search the heart and examine the mind, to reward each person according to their conduct, according to what their deeds deserve.” Jeremiah 17:10

Why does the Father choose who will be drawn to Jesus? "The apostles left the council and were happy, because God had considered them worthy to suffer for the sake of Jesus." Acts 5:41

What will happen? "You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved." Matthew 10:22

To whom it will happen to? “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21

John 6:44 is written in the general.

It is you who is reading Calvinism into John 6:44.