The Law Is Out Of Date And Will "SOON DISAPPEAR"?

[Dino246]

I think the flow of our interaction was clear, so I don't understand the confusion. Here it is again, hopefully clarified:

Ferarri Dino: "The law is not binding on Christians."

studier: "What about the Law of Christ" [added words per your "perhaps": Is it - the Law of Christ - binding on Christians?]

Here's the clarification, with the implied context made overt:

The Law, as given to and through Moses on Mt. Sinai to the ancient Israelites, is not binding on Christians.

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Here's the clarification, with the implied context made overt:

The Law, as given to and through Moses on Mt. Sinai to the ancient Israelites, is not binding on Christians.

But brother, didn't Jesus say that he hadn't come to destroy the Laws?

 

[Dino246]

But brother, didn't Jesus say that he hadn't come to destroy the Laws?

Indeed He did. What else did He say, in that brief statement?

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

Indeed He did. What else did He say, in that brief statement?

I don't know, I'm sorry.

 

[Dino246]

I don't know, I'm sorry.

No worries. It's in Matthew 5:17.-18:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus did accomplish what He set out to, and at the end of His life on earth, He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30).

In Hebrews 8:13, it is written, "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Christians may learn much about God's plan and character through reading the Law, but we are not "under" it. Rather, "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves." (Hebrews 10:1)

 

[NEWTOCHRISTIANITY]

No worries. It's in Matthew 5:17.-18:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus did accomplish what He set out to, and at the end of His life on earth, He said, "It is finished." (John 19:30).

In Hebrews 8:13, it is written, "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

Christians may learn much about God's plan and character through reading the Law, but we are not "under" it. Rather, "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves." (Hebrews 10:1)

Thanks so much for this, brother; I get it, now.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

But brother, didn't Jesus say that he hadn't come to destroy the Laws?

Before he died and rose speaking to the people who's covenant is the law

‭Matthew 5:17-18 KJV‬
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

After he died and rose confirming the gospel to all people


‭Luke 24:44-48 KJV‬
[44] And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Here's the clarification, with the implied context made overt:

The Law, as given to and through Moses on Mt. Sinai to the ancient Israelites, is not binding on Christians.

Unless they choose it

‭Galatians 5:2-4 KJV‬
[2] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. [3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. [4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It is finished. And asking, "what is it?" brings to mind Faith No More's lyrics from their song Epic, although I'm sure they'd never figured out 'what is it' seeing that they'd answered it with "It's it." And Spin magazine quoted Patton remarking on their success with the song, and the adoration of their fans, saying, "(bleep), it's not right. I've never had anyone look up to me and take what I say as gospel. Being so young, I don't know (bleep); I'm in no position to talk down to anyone." But indeed, they'd hit on that one question that everyone hopes to discover. What is it?

I tend to wonder if he's referring to this


‭John 19:30 KJV‬
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

‭Psalm 69:21 KJV‬
[21] They gave me also gall for my meat; And in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.( Doesn't say he drank it )

‭
‭Matthew 27:34-35 KJV‬
[34] they gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. [35] And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

If he's talking about that final prophecy concerning his suffering just as he draws his last breath as they are dividing his garments

 

[Mem]

I tend to wonder if he's referring to this


‭John 19:30 KJV‬
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

‭Psalm 69:21 KJV‬
[21] They gave me also gall for my meat; And in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.( Doesn't say he drank it )

‭
‭Matthew 27:34-35 KJV‬
[34] they gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. [35] And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.

If he's talking about that final prophecy concerning his suffering just as he draws his last breath as they are dividing his garments

This puts me in mind of the beginning of creation when God looked and saw that it was good, and the sixth day God looked on all that He had made and, indeed, it was very good. But I note that what is conspicuously missing is God's explicit declaration, "It is finished' although it is written in Genesis 2 that God had finished the work that He had been doing, so on that day rested from all His work, and Hebrews 4:4 tells us that His works have been finished from the foundation of the world.

Genesis 2:3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.
and at the end of that chapter says,
25And the man and his wife were both naked, and they were not ashamed.

The context there speaks to creation but "it," to me, speak of salvation.

and indeed, Job 26 says,
6Sheol is naked before God,
and Abaddona has no covering. (footnote a:Abaddon means Destruction)

and Hebrews 12 says,
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


When God asked Adam, "who told you that you were naked, have you eaten from the tree that I told you not to eat?" I translate the spirit of this question as saying something like, "why would you listen to what anyone else tells you about the condition that were in, as if you had no covering that I can provide?"

If you think about it, their physical condition of nakedness did not change as much as eating of the tree changed their perspective of it, since they became ashamed.

We are still naked before him, as are all things, but we no longer need be ashamed because He covers us with His own glory.

 

[studier]

You Are Welcome! God Bless Yo

Here's the clarification, with the implied context made overt:

The Law, as given to and through Moses on Mt. Sinai to the ancient Israelites, is not binding on Christians.

I understood you, including contextually, the first time. Do you have any thoughts as to the "Law of Christ" being binding on Christians.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Thanks. I have no preference although I'm used to searching English in the NKJ. I'll go to Greek and maybe other English ones when I think it's necessary.

I think the NLT is taking some liberties here. Here's why:

• The context here is the pre-Law, pre-circumcision of Abraham to establish that righteousness is from faith not Law.
• God made His promises to Abraham pre-Law, pre-circ, so those promises are passed down not through Law but through faith.
• Then came Law from which comes wrath for violating Law.

This is not really talking about us not being under Law (although it can be assumed from the circ/uncirc parallel to Law that Law needs to be thought out), or Law not existing. Under Law is discussed elsewhere. Law not existing (today) is still a question.

Hmmm . . . I'm not grasping your approach. Anyway, below is the NKJ(V) translation:
Romans 4:15 NKJV - ". . . because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law [there is] no transgression."

As you can see, it says, "Where there is no law, there is no transgression." So, we can't really fall back on the NLT card. Nearly all translations are saying the same things.

At any rate, the Law being removed is vital to the complete Story of God.

Cheers

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

The question remains for @2ndTimothyGroup as to whether the Laws exist or don't exist or whether something else was meant by "exist".

Nothing written in this world, be it on paper or stone, could ever have any impact on anyone's Eternal future.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Messianic Jews (Hebrews) 8:13
By using the term, "new," he has made the first covenant "old"; and something being made old, something in the process
of aging, is on its way to vanishing altogether. Messianic Jewish Version

By using the term, "new," he has made the first covenant "old." Is one to infer that the Jewish holidays, Shabbat, kashrut, civil laws,
and moral laws of the Mosaic Covenant are on the verge of vanishing altogether? No! The Mosaic Covenant presents itself as
eternal. The "old" Torah continues, and continues to have its same purpose, but now there is a new High Priesthood being
introduced. We do not know when the "old" covenant will vanish; but we do know that Yeshua said, "Until heaven and earth
pass away, not so much as ayudor a stroke will pass from the Torah---not until everything that must happen has happened."

Shalom

I really don't get it. If any written, worldly Law could have any impact upon a person's Eternity, how could Abraham and Sarah be our Mother and Father of Faith? There was no law to break.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Hi friend, discussing the law on an open forum is a brave endeavor : )

On your point of the law been extinct Jesus said in Mathew 5:18 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

So to start the convo the law was given because of transgressions and by law is the knowledge of sin. So when people realize they fall short of the Glory of God and all have sinned they should realise they are a sinner and need a savior, so the law can't be done away because the world has a lot of sinners and Jesus came to save sinners, so it still is very relevant for sinners

I hear you, but this makes absolutely no sense. In the context of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, to say that any written, wordly law is relevant to one's Eternity is illogical.

When a person can thoroughly explain the Purpose, Work, and Effect of Christ's Holy Work, written Laws are not a part of Salvation for anyone, Jew or Gentile. And this is what the modern-day church does not teach . . . the Saving Gospel Plan of Jesus Christ. Today's church teaches 1/3 of the Gospel, and that's going to make it very difficult for the students of such a corrupt system to understand the Law, much less the entire Bible.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Jesus said until ALL is fulfilled

Matthew 5: 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The next verse would not make sense if all has been fulfilled now.

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Which correlates with Jesus prediction at His Second Coming that has yet to be fulfilled

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

This really isn't too hard to reconcile.

When Jesus said ALL is fulfilled it means all.

Looking forward to His fulfillment of His Second Coming!

Rev 1:7 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This puts me in mind of the beginning of creation when God looked and saw that it was good, and the sixth day God looked on all that He had made and, indeed, it was very good. But I note that what is conspicuously missing is God's explicit declaration, "It is finished' although it is written in Genesis 2 that God had finished the work that He had been doing, so on that day rested from all His work, and Hebrews 4:4 tells us that His works have been finished from the foundation of the world.

Genesis 2:3Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on that day He rested from all the work of creation that He had accomplished.
and at the end of that chapter says,
25And the man and his wife were both naked, and they were not ashamed.

The context there speaks to creation but "it," to me, speak of salvation.

and indeed, Job 26 says,
6Sheol is naked before God,
and Abaddona has no covering. (footnote a:Abaddon means Destruction)

and Hebrews 12 says,
2Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


When God asked Adam, "who told you that you were naked, have you eaten from the tree that I told you not to eat?" I translate the spirit of this question as saying something like, "why would you listen to what anyone else tells you about the condition that were in, as if you had no covering that I can provide?"

If you think about it, their physical condition of nakedness did not change as much as eating of the tree changed their perspective of it, since they became ashamed.

We are still naked before him, as are all things, but we no longer need be ashamed because He covers us with His own glory.

I found it interesting they make aprons to cover themselves , yet as soon as they hear Gods word they hide saying I was afraid so I hid because I was naked ....


‭Hebrews 4:12-13 KJV‬
[12] For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [13] Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

To all who believe the Law of Moses is still in force:

When you're giving the Saving Gospel Plan of Christ to a Gentile, which parts of the Law do you teach that are required for Eternal Life? Is there a list of these Laws? What do you give to these new, potential Believers about the Law of Moses?

What is the Gospel that you share? How is a person saved?

 

[SabbathBlessing]

To all who believe the Law of Moses is still in force:

When you're giving the Saving Gospel Plan of Christ to a Gentile, which parts of the Law do you teach that are required for Eternal Life? Is there a list of these Laws? What do you give to these new, potential Believers about the Law of Moses?

What is the Gospel that you share? How is a person saved?

Where did the greatest commandments come from? They came from the law of Moses.

Deut 6:5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

I am not familiar with any scripture that says all of the law of Moses ended. Jesus often taught on it.
I am not familiar with any scripture that says God's Ten Commandments ended- Jesus said not to break the least of these Mat 5:19 and not a jot or tittle can pass from His law until all is fulfilled. That will be on the Glorious Day when Jesus comes. Until than, we should only worship Him, we should not bow down to idols, use His name only in a holy way-which also means if we say we are Christians we need to behave as such, we should keep His Sabbath day holy, not lie, steal, murder or break the least of these.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[ThewindBlows]

:

I hear you, but this makes absolutely no sense. In the context of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, to say that any written, wordly law is relevant to one's Eternity is illogical.

When a person can thoroughly explain the Purpose, Work, and Effect of Christ's Holy Work, written Laws are not a part of Salvation for anyone, Jew or Gentile. And this is what the modern-day church does not teach . . . the Saving Gospel Plan of Jesus Christ. Today's church teaches 1/3 of the Gospel, and that's going to make it very difficult for the students of such a corrupt system to understand the Law, much less the entire Bible.

The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. and the law is good, if a man use it lawfully, so you are going to have to deal with it whether you like it or not.

I didn't see you explain those things what I did see you doing was accusing the church so you shouldn't do that.

So as I said the law shows sin! but there is a solution for sin and it releases you from the curse of the law but I haven't seen you talk about that, I have seen you trying to pretend the law is extinct while trying to discuss it.