Salvation is a Free Gift.

[rogerg]

The fly is double predestiny, it is not scripture it is nothing more than an assumption on the part of the good Monsieur.
The question was "if God has predestined and chosen [elect] some to be saved does it not therefore follow that all others are passed over?"

I assume by "passed over" you mean not saved/facing God's judgment. So,
I think the below verses go a long way towards reconciling that point.
Because of Adam's failure in the garden, sin was propagated to all mankind, making us all worthy of death, even those whom He would later save. Mankind, as a whole, became guilty before God's eyes until being justified by Christ because we all commit the same sin making us worthy of death. Had God not been exceedingly gracious and merciful to justify some of the guilty, all would rightfully suffer the second death. However, He did choose to be merciful, and so He chose us, undeserving though we may be - and not being one whit better than those whom He did not choose - out of that entire guilty mass of humanity - He spared us unto salvation, us who by rights, were unworthy of such.
So, what it comes down to, I believe, is that God exercised His divine prerogative, privilege and good pleasure, and picked those whom He would justify through His offering and sacrifice and owes no explanation nor apology to anyone as to why He chose whom He chose. No one is deserving of salvation to begin with - all deserve death, none deserve life.

[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[Rom 5:17 KJV] 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

 

[Evmur]

I have no clue what you said dear brother . Did you notice before Jesus died he's only preaching to Israel those he had made blind and deaf but said he would choose a tenth a remnant to spare ? And then he is saying that when he dies he would draw all men to himself ? Notice after he died the gospel was then sent to every creature for salvation .....

what a muddle, "who He made blind and deaf" [er isn't that sumwot at odds with your theology] but they were those who came out to oppose Him. Why did they oppose Him? Because the people were flocking to Him.

They said "if we leave Him alone the WHOLE world will follow Him"

The people heard Him gladly, it was just the leaders of society, the religious and political leaders who opposed Him. It's the same today, gospel ministries which are successful will come in for criticism "mega church.... popularism, micky mouse"

The only Jesus I see in the bible is one who came to save people and fix them up, He didn't save their souls and leave them in their mess. People love the real Jesus.

 

[rogerg]

You say you weren't forced, but that God/Jesus drawing us means being forcefully dragged off.

PS ~ there are 29 instances of "lovingkindness" in the KJV.

It means that God did/does it on their behalf.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

what a muddle, "who He made blind and deaf" [er isn't that sumwot at odds with your theology] but they were those who came out to oppose Him. Why did they oppose Him? Because the people were flocking to Him.

They said "if we leave Him alone the WHOLE world will follow Him"

The people heard Him gladly, it was just the leaders of society, the religious and political leaders who opposed Him. It's the same today, gospel ministries which are successful will come in for criticism "mega church.... popularism, micky mouse"

The only Jesus I see in the bible is one who came to save people and fix them up, He didn't save their souls and leave them in their mess. People love the real Jesus.

alright I suppose

 

[Evmur]

I assume by "passed over" you mean not saved/facing God's judgment. So,
I think the below verses go a long way towards reconciling that point.
Because of Adam's failure in the garden, sin was propagated to all mankind, making us all worthy of death, even those whom He would later save. Mankind, as a whole, became guilty before God's eyes until being justified by Christ because we all commit the same sin making us worthy of death. Had God not been exceedingly gracious and merciful to justify some of the guilty, all would rightfully suffer the second death. However, He did choose to be merciful, and so He chose us, undeserving though we may be - and not being one whit better than those whom He did not choose - out of that entire guilty mass of humanity - He spared us unto salvation, us who by rights, were unworthy of such.
So, what it comes down to, I believe, is that God exercised His divine prerogative, privilege and good pleasure, and picked those whom He would justify through His offering and sacrifice and owes no explanation nor apology to anyone as to why He chose whom He chose. No one is deserving of salvation to begin with - all deserve death, none deserve life.

[Rom 5:19 KJV] 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

[Rom 5:17 KJV] 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

That is all human reasoning, assumption, logic. it is was men have deduced from their understanding of scripture.

YOU hold these things as though they were in fact the scriptures and therefore true.

I don't read scripture like that. Even if you take Romans 5. YOU say "some" Paul says "many" many are made sinners and many are made righteous.

You skipped over verse 18. didn't you. It said something you didn't like, something that doesn't fit your theological framework "then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so by one man's obedience leads to acquittal and life for all men. "

That does not say all men will be acquitted and receive life but it is available for all men.

People say "few" Peter thought "few" but Jesus said "many" they'll come from the east and the west and sit with Abraham in the Kingdom. More in number than can be counted.

I have never believed since being saved that billions and billions of human souls will be in hell. It has always shocked me that Christians think so. But the devil would have won a great victory if that were the case.

Never, let him eat dust.

 

[Evmur]

alright I suppose

... now I'm defenceless

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It means that God did/does it on their behalf.

“We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away.

For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,( law of Moses )

how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:1-4‬ ‭NIV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

... now I'm defenceless

Lol just avoiding the argument wasn’t following what you were saying so figured I’d bow out brother no worries you need no defenses

 

[rogerg]

That is all human reasoning, assumption, logic. it is was men have deduced from their understanding of scripture.

YOU hold these things as though they were in fact the scriptures and therefore true.

I don't read scripture like that. Even if you take Romans 5. YOU say "some" Paul says "many" many are made sinners and many are made righteous.

You skipped over verse 18. didn't you. It said something you didn't like, something that doesn't fit your theological framework "then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so by one man's obedience leads to acquittal and life for all men. "

That does not say all men will be acquitted and receive life but it is available for all men.

People say "few" Peter thought "few" but Jesus said "many" they'll come from the east and the west and sit with Abraham in the Kingdom. More in number than can be counted.

I have never believed since being saved that billions and billions of human souls will be in hell. It has always shocked me that Christians think so. But the devil would have won a great victory if that were the case.

Never, let him eat dust.

Whatever. I assumed you'd say something like that given that you trust in man's works/actions for
their salvation rather than fully/completely trusting in God's grace. I obviously disagree but don't feel like debating it right now.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Well, we could discuss that verse for hours. My interpretation of it is different from yours.

First, I believe that the "comes" or "cometh" in the KJV, is not actually in the verse. Anyway,
there are several possibilities. The one I think correct is the faith in view is Christ's faith, not ours,
and through the hearing (spiritual hearing) of word of God (part of the verse), is that those born again through the reading of scripture
come to an understanding of Christ's faith - an awareness that it brought salvation to fruition.
I've also heard another interpretation which I believe plausible, it is that we are given faith through the
fruit of the Spirit but grow into that faith through the reading of scripture.
One thing is for sure, the Bible cannot contradict itself, so, since it clearly says faith comes as the
fruit of the Spirit, I don't think that it would be possible to be from a source other than that -
so, any interpretation we may draw cannot contradict it.

Christ is God so Faith is for the Believer.
God does not need faith because as God He is the provider of Faith.
And you just think God is manipulating you to salvation where there are no scripture anywhere to back that up.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Christ is God so Faith is for the Believer.
God does not need faith because as God He is the provider of Faith.
And you just think God is manipulating you to salvation where there are no scripture anywhere to back that up.

God speaks pure faith like this

“And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But when he speaks to a man like third he’s including the man in his faith watch how the same powerful word of faith now requires Moses to act for it to come to pass because he’s been included in what God is speaking forth

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.

And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭10:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there’s a difference of God is speaking to creation like this

“And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still.

And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭4:39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Than if he’s speaking to people like this

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hes always and ever speaking faith but when he’s speaking to us it’s including us on that same power of faith that comes forth whenever the lord speaks

He speaks and worlds arise he speaks again and they fall he speaks to a man inviting the man to believe him and act on whatever he has said and what the result will be

“Lift your hand Moses so that there may be darkness …Moses obeyed and there was darkness “

this is the operation of faith we hear the lord and believe and obey him and every time we do this he will keep the thing he said he will do

 

[rogerg]

Christ is God so Faith is for the Believer.
God does not need faith because as God He is the provider of Faith.
And you just think God is manipulating you to salvation where there are no scripture anywhere to back that up.

Jesus was faithful to the Father's will for Him.

[Heb 3:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[CS1]

Whatever. I assumed you'd say something like that given that you trust in man's works/actions for
their salvation rather than fully/completely trusting in God's grace. I obviously disagree but don't feel like debating it right now.

whatever? Evmur brought the word of God, and I would say correctly and biblically provided what he sees in scripture, and your response is whatever? LOL. how about refute it with the word of God or admit you are wrong.

 

[rogerg]

whatever? Evmur brought the word of God, and I would say correctly and biblically provided what he sees in scripture, and your response is whatever? LOL. how about refute it with the word of God or admit you are wrong.

How about you not assigning me tasks.

Did you read my prior reply to him?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Jesus was faithful to the Father's will for Him.

[Heb 3:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses [was faithful] in all his house.

[Rev 2:13 KJV]
13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

[Heb 12:2 KJV] 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Jesus is God and knew the Plan before He came as Jesus.

You act like Jesus had no clue about anything.

 

[rogerg]

Jesus was God and knew the Plan before He came as Jesus.

You act like Jesus had no clue about anything.

You're grasping.

You asked for verses, I posted them. Done.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You're grasping.

You asked for verses, I posted them. Done.

I didn't ask for verses because I know with your doctrine they're provided without you ever needing to research and learn them for yourself.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I didn't. Here, let's see if you are able to connect the dots. Hint: see the " give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him" in Jhn 17:2, and that it relates to the "given me" and the "raise it up again on the last day" in Jhn 6:39, and the "draw him and I will raise him up at the last day" in Jhn 6:44? In Jhn 6:45, the "therefore" associates Jhn 6:45 to Jhn 6:44, such that only those whom God teaches, are those drawn by God to come to Jesus and are raised on the last day.
When you can comprehend those associations (if you can), you will then be able to see that only those to be saved will be those drawn to Christ and raised up. Even if Jhn 6:44 were the only verse to mention it, that verse, in itself, would still be sufficient to demonstrate that only those to be saved are drawn to Christ.
And don't lecture me as to what I can and cannot post. Your edicts mean nothing to me.

[Jhn 17:2 KJV] 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

[Jhn 6:39 KJV] 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[Jhn 6:44,45 KJV] 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Here are some bonus verses to demonstrate that "raise up" pertains in the Bible to eternal life at the last day.

[Jhn 6:40 KJV] 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[2Co 4:14 KJV] 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.

[Jhn 6:54 KJV] 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

look who he’s talking to before he died and then look what he says about his death ….” When I am lifted up will draw all men to myself “

israel was blinded and bound to destruction but he said he would spare a remnant a seed to inherit the kingdom

a when he’s speaking before his death only those remnant believed him about 500 people it says believed

bit after many who had rejected him accepted him in acts chapter 2 Jesus dying on the cross is Gods call to all creation to come

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Jesus is God and knew the Plan before He came as Jesus.

You act like Jesus had no clue about anything.

That’s it he is all knowing he knows the outcome alreqdy he knew Judas would betray him before the creation that’s is why Judas is written in prophecy and why Jesus says what he says about him he didn’t make Judas betray him he only knew he would beforehand

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You're grasping.

You asked for verses, I posted them. Done.

Because you think God has picked people out for salvation and forces them to repent and be children of God, does this mean you DISOBEY our only one Commission to make Disciples by preaching the Gospel and Baptizing them?