There will be no Rapture!!!

[Pilgrimshope]

They AWAIT the 1,000 years for Judgement.

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.

The ot dead we’re promised a resurrection at the culmination of thier covenant when the messiah came

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,”
“and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:50- 53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

‭

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

in Christ we’re promised a resurrection at the culmination of the New Testament when the messiah comes again

“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Each resurrection confirms to the promises of each testament the ot were promised a resurrection when the messiah arrived and the church is also promised a resurrection when the messiah arrives from heaven the second time with salvstion

The kingdom is in heaven until he comes

 

[Musicmaster]

Why wouldn't during Creation or before God not already made everything and it comes to pass in the TIME God had planned?
You limit God because your desire to be right in your theory.

Please don't see my inquiry as an attempt to limit God. All that has happened and will happen, all was preordained by the Lord. The fall of Adam, those trees and that serpent being in the garden, the Lord knew it all, allowed it all, and it all has and will flow into the ultimate goal the Lord has for man.

However, in relation to the question you asked, I don't see how that at all calls into question what I stated, in that the 24 elders are representative of the Church as is proven by redemption from sin by the Blood of the Lamb AND that they alone, among all the groupings throughout history, are identified and called kings and priests unto God...something not ever attributed to any other grouping, including angels, which in this case, includes all of Israel that are followers of Christ in this Church age, AND Gentiles the world over within the confines of this Church age.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Please don't see my inquiry as an attempt to limit God. All that has happened and will happen, all was preordained by the Lord. The fall of Adam, those trees and that serpent being in the garden, the Lord knew it all, allowed it all, and it all has and will flow into the ultimate goal the Lord has for man.

However, in relation to the question you asked, I don't see how that at all calls into question what I stated, in that the 24 elders are representative of the Church as is proven by redemption from sin by the Blood of the Lamb AND that they alone, among all the groupings throughout history, are identified and called kings and priests unto God...something not ever attributed to any other grouping, including angels, which in this case, includes all of Israel that are followers of Christ in this Church age, AND Gentiles the world over within the confines of this Church age.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

MM

Anyone in Heaven has been redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. Old Testament Saints have been redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. And there's only 24 Elders. That could easily be the Apostles, their Disciples, Mark, James, Jude, Luke. John could have been talking to his future self as an Elder if we want to apply the Church. The Church has been established since Book of Acts, not people in 2024.

 

[Musicmaster]

Anyone in Heaven has been redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. Old Testament Saints have been redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. And there's only 24 Elders. That could easily be the Apostles, their Disciples, Mark, James, Jude, Luke. John could have been talking to his future self as an Elder if we want to apply the Church. The Church has been established since Book of Acts, not people in 2024.

You're ignoring ALL the criteria that I quoted from the text where it's clearly stated who those 24 elders are. Why are you doing this? Is your system filtering what the text clearly states that I quoted for you? Please keep in mind that I'm curious as to how anyone can so easily ignore what is clearly stated. Never mind red herring comparisons to eternity versus time, before creation or after creation and all that jazz. I've already stated some agreement with you on some elements of that, so let us please dispense with those distractions. They do not change what the text clearly states in order to give to us understanding for the identity of those 24 elders.

MM

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Anyone in Heaven has been redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. Old Testament Saints have been redeemed by the Blood of Jesus. And there's only 24 Elders. That could easily be the Apostles, their Disciples, Mark, James, Jude, Luke. John could have been talking to his future self as an Elder if we want to apply the Church. The Church has been established since Book of Acts, not people in 2024.

amen there are 24 names written on the kingdom 12 tribes and twelve apostles

“and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: ( ot )

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”( nt)
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12, 14‬ ‭

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. ( ot )

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, ( nt) stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4, 9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple( priesthood ) and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”(see chapter 21)
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:14-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Why wouldn't during Creation or before God not already made everything and it comes to pass in the TIME God had planned?

Not sure quite what your point is... though I *think* I grasp what the point is you are attempting to make (I'm not "limiting" God, as you say, but instead go by what the text itself states...)






[quoting from an old post of mine... as to what the TEXT ITSELF is conveying]


[...] see... the correspondence among the following three verses (informing of the "WHEN" in relation to what other things, and the "HOW LONG"/"DURATION" of the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)... the "Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1" FUTURE aspects of the Book:


*1)--Revelation 1:1a [22:6] - "The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] to show to His bond-servants what things

it behooves to [/must]

take place

in quickness [noun]."


2)--Revelation 1:19c - "Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things

that will [mello-'are certain to']

happen [/take place]

after these [things]."


3)--Revelation 4:1 - "After these things [after 'the things WHICH ARE' in chpts 2-3 (which are NOT said to be what must take place "in quickness [noun]," by contrast)] I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying, [or, the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet (back in chpt 1:10-11, where Jesus Himself is also referred to as "the FIRST and the LAST") was (now) saying,] "Come up here, and I will show to you what [/what things]

it behooves to [/must]

take place

after these things."



... *referring to the "THINGS" John is getting ready to be "SHOW[N]" (from 4:1 and following)... [...<snip>...] the ENTIRE "7-yr Trib" (4:1 / chpt 6 thru chpt 19) IS the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (being referred to in 1:1 [22:6])



[end quoting old post]






What John is getting ready to be "SHOW[N]" (1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) is NOT things that have transpired (and will) SINCE CREATION, but that specific, future, LIMITED time-period (we commonly call "the 7-yr Trib") which IMMEDIATELY PRECEDES and LEADS UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19).

That is what the TEXT ITSELF is conveying.

You limit God because your desire to be right in your theory.

Not so.

Our understanding of the text must be constrained to what the text itself actually says, rather than injecting "our ideas" INTO the text things it does not say (ideas like, this Book is covering "things [that are true] EVER SINCE CREATION"... That is "our" IDEAS being injected INTO the text, but which doesn't SAY THAT).








Additionally, one can (via study of the text of Revelation and the meticulous details supplied within it) SEE an actual set of dates (i.e. specific calendar dates) which total the "2520 days" (the 7-yr period we commonly call "the Trib");

...so I remain wholly unconvinced of your viewpoint. = )

 

[wolfwint]

You can’t be serious. Denying biblical truth is what every pre tribber since John Darby has been doing.

1827.
Someone has done their research,

Finaly it doesnt matter what we believe or not about the future things to come. They will come as the Lords says. I for my part believe the next big thing will be the rapture. It makes more sense for me then all the other views.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Not sure quite what your point is... though I *think* I grasp what the point is you are attempting to make (I'm not "limiting" God, as you say, but instead go by what the text itself states...)






[quoting from an old post of mine... as to what the TEXT ITSELF is conveying]


[...] see... the correspondence among the following three verses (informing of the "WHEN" in relation to what other things, and the "HOW LONG"/"DURATION" of the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book)... the "Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1" FUTURE aspects of the Book:


*1)--Revelation 1:1a [22:6] - "The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] to show to His bond-servants what things

it behooves to [/must]

take place

in quickness [noun]."


2)--Revelation 1:19c - "Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things

that will [mello-'are certain to']

happen [/take place]

after these [things]."


3)--Revelation 4:1 - "After these things [after 'the things WHICH ARE' in chpts 2-3 (which are NOT said to be what must take place "in quickness [noun]," by contrast)] I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying, [or, the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet (back in chpt 1:10-11, where Jesus Himself is also referred to as "the FIRST and the LAST") was (now) saying,] "Come up here, and I will show to you what [/what things]

it behooves to [/must]

take place

after these things."



... *referring to the "THINGS" John is getting ready to be "SHOW[N]" (from 4:1 and following)... [...<snip>...] the ENTIRE "7-yr Trib" (4:1 / chpt 6 thru chpt 19) IS the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (being referred to in 1:1 [22:6])



[end quoting old post]






What John is getting ready to be "SHOW[N]" (1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1) is NOT things that have transpired (and will) SINCE CREATION, but that specific, future, LIMITED time-period (we commonly call "the 7-yr Trib") which IMMEDIATELY PRECEDES and LEADS UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth (at Rev19).

That is what the TEXT ITSELF is conveying.



Not so.

Our understanding of the text must be constrained to what the text itself actually says, rather than injecting "our ideas" INTO the text things it does not say (ideas like, this Book is covering "things [that are true] EVER SINCE CREATION"... That is "our" IDEAS being injected INTO the text, but which doesn't SAY THAT).








Additionally, one can (via study of the text of Revelation and the meticulous details supplied within it) SEE an actual set of dates (i.e. specific calendar dates) which total the "2520 days" (the 7-yr period we commonly call "the Trib");

...so I remain wholly unconvinced of your viewpoint. = )

The vision John see's in real time is also appointed to a connection of future events.
Therefore, it could have been created and manifested at any point before John saw it.
Because the Old Testament Saints are already resurrected, they could be the Elders and be the Great Cloud of Witnesses that sees us now and when Hebrew's was written.

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Because the Old Testament Saints are already resurrected

Three things come to mind:

1) the Matthew 27:52 text states, "...MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose"--it does NOT say all did... (and they went into the city and appeared to many, v.53--which I believe is told to us by way of *contrast* to what Jesus Himself did that very day [Jn20:17], but which is a side point and not pertinent to our present subject). Point being, "MANY" were resurrected (i.e. a "sampling")--not ALL OT saints...; for we see in the next passages...


2) In Daniel 12:13, Daniel is told he will "rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected bodily ('to stand again'--on the earth)] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the 'DAYS' referred to specifically IN THAT CHPT, i.e. at the END of the far-future SECOND HALF of the 7-yr Trib, that is, when Christ will RETURN to the earth at Rev19]";

In Job 19:25-27, Job acknowledges that he will "SEE" his "Redeemer" stand at the latter / hindermost day "upon the earth"... with his own [resurrected] eyeballs;

and Martha acknowledged, in John 11:24, that she also WELL-KNEW (as ALL OT saints well-knew) that "resurrection" would take place "IN the LAST DAY" (i.e. [bodily resurrected] FOR the earthly MK age [the LAST DAY / 7th DAY]); and further...


3) In Acts 2:29, Peter confidently affirms, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." (referring to the fact that he / David had not yet been "bodily resurrected"--in contrast to Jesus, Who WAS!)




So I remain unconvinced by your claim that all OT saints have already been resurrected... but instead, I agree with Scripture that "MANY" were bodily resurrected [and for a specific (limited) "purpose"]
(but this was only a "sampling" of them, and NOT meant to convey that they ALL/ALL OT SAINTS had been!)

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Three things come to mind:

1) the Matthew 27:52 text states, "...MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose"--it does NOT say all did... (and they went into the city and appeared to many, v.53--which I believe is told to us by way of *contrast* to what Jesus Himself did that very day [Jn20:17], but which is a side point and not pertinent to our present subject). Point being, "MANY" were resurrected (i.e. a "sampling")--not ALL OT saints...; for we see in the next passages...


2) In Daniel 12:13, Daniel is told he will "rest [in death] and STAND IN THY LOT [be resurrected bodily ('to stand again'--on the earth)] at the END OF THE DAYS [at the END of the 'DAYS' referred to specifically IN THAT CHPT, i.e. at the END of the far-future SECOND HALF of the 7-yr Trib, that is, when Christ will RETURN to the earth at Rev19]";

In Job 19:25-27, Job acknowledges that he will "SEE" his "Redeemer" stand at the latter / hindermost day "upon the earth"... with his own [resurrected] eyeballs;

and Martha acknowledged, in John 11:24, that she also WELL-KNEW (as ALL OT saints well-knew) that "resurrection" would take place "IN the LAST DAY" (i.e. [bodily resurrected] FOR the earthly MK age [the LAST DAY / 7th DAY]); and further...


3) In Acts 2:29, Peter confidently affirms, "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." (referring to the fact that he / David had not yet been "bodily resurrected"--in contrast to Jesus, Who WAS!)




So I remain unconvinced by your claim that all OT saints have already been resurrected... but instead, I agree with Scripture that "MANY" were bodily resurrected [and for a specific (limited) "purpose"]
(but this was only a "sampling" of them, and NOT meant to convey that they ALL/ALL OT SAINTS had been!)

Jesus explains a kind of purgatory example in Luke in the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar.
Are you claiming they're still there even though it's taught they were ascended to Heaven after Jesus ascended?

 

[Musicmaster]

Jesus explains a kind of purgatory example in Luke in the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar.
Are you claiming they're still there even though it's taught they were ascended to Heaven after Jesus ascended?

Purgatory? Abraham's Bosom in Sheol? Have you read that carefully, because it appears you have not. The OT saints were not in any kind of suffering at all. They were on the opposite side of a sort of impassible dividing chasm.

I'm also wondering why you also did not consider that the 24 elders stated that the Lord had made them kings and priests unto God, which is never conferred upon Israel, the angels or any other grouping apart from the Church age saints. Not even the believers from the tribulation are referred to as kings and priests, and they also don't have crowns. All these distinctives that continue to be ignored by so many.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Sheol, which is in the earth, which, logically, means that it's right here in this realm of time and space (Deut 32:22; 1 Sam 28:11-15; Job 26:5; Psalm 86:13; Isa 7:11; Ezekiel 31:14-16; Ezekiel 31:18). That makes the suffering of the dead who are on the torment side of Sheol far worse, in that they are still experiencing time in this dimension, as is evidenced by the rich Jew who asked that Lazerus dip his finger in water to place on his lips to relieve the suffering somewhat, AND that someone go back to the surface of the earth and warn his brothers that Sheol and suffering is real.

The picture Christ painted about Sheol in relation to Abraham's Bosom, the contrast is striking, even though Abraham's Bosom, within Sheol, was a required holding place of captivity, although more of a paradise than the other side of the gulf, held there until the fulfillment of the redemption that none of the animal blood could ever have provided before being granted entrance into Heavenly paradise.

Given that they have already received their glorified bodies, they are not the objects of the pre-trib rapture since the dead in Christ after the cross have yet to receive theirs, as is evidenced in what Paul told the believers in Thessalonica. The assumption that the First Resurrection was only one event therefore falls flat. It's actually a series of events across a span of time, up until the Second Resurrection, which will be of the lost unto Judgement.

MM

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus explains a kind of purgatory example in Luke in the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar.
Are you claiming they're still there even though it's taught they were ascended to Heaven after Jesus ascended?

A couple of thoughts to consider:

--Luke 16:22 says, "the rich man also died and was buried" (it goes on to say, "And in hell [/hades] he..."); My question to you would be, let's say you and I are graverobbers... if we had dug out his grave at this point, do you believe his "body" would still be located there in the grave? What about Lazarus's grave? Would we find his "body" still located in the grave? Because (for Lazarus) "resurrection" pertains to his "physical body" even though it will be "CHANGED / GLORIFIED / PERFECTED" (that is, when "resurrection" will take place, it involves the "body"... the very one he had while still-living [before he died], the very one that was buried after he died/'slept'[-bodily]);

--so, in view of this ^ , I believe when it says "the beggar [Lazarus] died," this meant that his physical body was buried (and is what "will be" resurrected--"IN the LAST DAY" [the 7th and Last Millennium]); I do not believe this means they [believers / saints] couldn't be RELOCATED when Jesus ascended... I just think, like when we die today ('absent from the body, at home [/present] with the Lord') our "physical bodies" remain in the grave until "resurrection [of the body]"--as in, "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE [G450 - 'to stand again' (on the earth)] *first*..." (before we're all 'caught up' at the same time / the same-singular snatch-action [G726], 'together' TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR);
IOW, I don't believe that relocation (at the time of Jesus' ascension) involved [their GLORIFIED / PERFECTED] BODIES (their "bodies" yet await "resurrection"--just like is meant in Acts 2:29 [in contrast to Jesus, WHO HAD bodily resurrected]);

--Hebrews 11:40 seems to agree ^ , where it says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." (They still await "glorified / perfected" bodies... which WILL take place when their bodies are "resurrected"... and I already supplied at least 3 passages which inform us that this will be "far-future" from when they lived on the earth, rather than having taken place at Jesus' ascension in the first century); Again, the Matt27 text just says "MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose..." NOT ALL of them (a "sampling" [for a specific, limited "purpose"]);





--as for "the Church which is His body" (all believers in "this present age [singular]"), Scripture informs that:
"this corruptible MUST PUT ON [G1746] incorruption" (that pertains to "the DEAD IN Christ" / those who "sleep through Jesus");
and "this mortal MUST PUT ON [G1746] immortality" (this phrase pertains to the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" the [same] time-slot being referenced)...
...where the words "PUT ON [G1746]" refers to our being clothed with our "glorified [perfected] bodies" (at the time-slot of "our Rapture"), and which word [G1746] is used also in 2Cor5:3 where there it is emphasizing the "still-alive" portion of the "One Body" (whereas "unclothed" in that passage refers to the portion of the "One Body" who have DIED before "our Rapture"... i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ" ['at home with the Lord'... but 'absent from the body'... UNTIL 'resurrection' ('the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE / BE RESURRECTED G450 [bodily] *first*...'--before we're 'caught up [G726]')])

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Purgatory? Abraham's Bosom in Sheol? Have you read that carefully, because it appears you have not. The OT saints were not in any kind of suffering at all. They were on the opposite side of a sort of impassible dividing chasm.

I'm also wondering why you also did not consider that the 24 elders stated that the Lord had made them kings and priests unto God, which is never conferred upon Israel, the angels or any other grouping apart from the Church age saints. Not even the believers from the tribulation are referred to as kings and priests, and they also don't have crowns. All these distinctives that continue to be ignored by so many.

MM

What translation are you using?

9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

Nowhere do the 24 Elders claim Jesus died for the Elders themselves but for the people on Earth.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

A couple of thoughts to consider:

--Luke 16:22 says, "the rich man also died and was buried" (it goes on to say, "And in hell [/hades] he..."); My question to you would be, let's say you and I are graverobbers... if we had dug out his grave at this point, do you believe his "body" would still be located there in the grave? What about Lazarus's grave? Would we find his "body" still located in the grave? Because (for Lazarus) "resurrection" pertains to his "physical body" even though it will be "CHANGED / GLORIFIED / PERFECTED" (that is, when "resurrection" will take place, it involves the "body"... the very one he had while still-living [before he died], the very one that was buried after he died/'slept'[-bodily]);

--so, in view of this ^ , I believe when it says "the beggar [Lazarus] died," this meant that his physical body was buried (and is what "will be" resurrected--"IN the LAST DAY" [the 7th and Last Millennium]); I do not believe this means they [believers / saints] couldn't be RELOCATED when Jesus ascended... I just think, like when we die today ('absent from the body, at home [/present] with the Lord') our "physical bodies" remain in the grave until "resurrection [of the body]"--as in, "the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE [G450 - 'to stand again' (on the earth)] *first*..." (before we're all 'caught up' at the same time / the same-singular snatch-action [G726], 'together' TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR);
IOW, I don't believe that relocation (at the time of Jesus' ascension) involved [their GLORIFIED / PERFECTED] BODIES (their "bodies" yet await "resurrection"--just like is meant in Acts 2:29 [in contrast to Jesus, WHO HAD bodily resurrected]);

--Hebrews 11:40 seems to agree ^ , where it says, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." (They still await "glorified / perfected" bodies... which WILL take place when their bodies are "resurrected"... and I already supplied at least 3 passages which inform us that this will be "far-future" from when they lived on the earth, rather than having taken place at Jesus' ascension in the first century); Again, the Matt27 text just says "MANY bodies of the saints which slept arose..." NOT ALL of them (a "sampling" [for a specific, limited "purpose"]);





--as for "the Church which is His body" (all believers in "this present age [singular]"), Scripture informs that:
"this corruptible MUST PUT ON [G1746] incorruption" (that pertains to "the DEAD IN Christ" / those who "sleep through Jesus");
and "this mortal MUST PUT ON [G1746] immortality" (this phrase pertains to the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" the [same] time-slot being referenced)...
...where the words "PUT ON [G1746]" refers to our being clothed with our "glorified [perfected] bodies" (at the time-slot of "our Rapture"), and which word [G1746] is used also in 2Cor5:3 where there it is emphasizing the "still-alive" portion of the "One Body" (whereas "unclothed" in that passage refers to the portion of the "One Body" who have DIED before "our Rapture"... i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ" ['at home with the Lord'... but 'absent from the body'... UNTIL 'resurrection' ('the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE / BE RESURRECTED G450 [bodily] *first*...'--before we're 'caught up [G726]')])

I think it's obvious people have been thinking the Elders are people who were from earth.

I did myself but reread Revelation 5 a couples of times and suddenly realized they were "never" on Earth.

9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

 

[Musicmaster]

What translation are you using?

9 And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”

Nowhere do the 24 Elders claim Jesus died for the Elders themselves but for the people on Earth.

That's a straw man argument. I never said the Blood of Christ was limited in any way as to who may call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. Yes, He died for the whole world, and He also has drawn all men to him, just as it's written.

As to translation, I should be asking that of you. The Greek Lexicon stated that the word "basileus" has this for biblical usage:

"leader of the people, prince, commander, lord of the land, king"

In other words, it's a masculine noun that speaks ONLY of a personage, not an inanimate thing or concept of a "kingdom."

The textual and grammatical construct of verse 10 also denotes this definition:

"of Christians, as to reign over the world with Christ in the millennial kingdom, Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:10"

That warped version you quoted is therefore not at all consistent with the Interlinear from the Textus Receptus or any other credible source. It sounds more like a paraphrase, which is very much much akin to allegory, meaning that it can then be twisted into whatever the writer of the commentary or transliteration desires for it to mean. What you quoted may also be something from the Vaticanus or even the Siniaticus, both of which are known to have been edited as many as five times in places, as seen through thermal imaging of the papyri, and therefore questionable at best.

Never on earth? They clearly stated that they were the redeemed given that they were redeemed by the Blood of Christ. They weren't sinners in Heaven. They HAD to have been on the earth like all the rest of us.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

That's a straw man argument. I never said the Blood of Christ was limited in any way as to who may call upon the name of the Lord for salvation. Yes, He died for the whole world, and He also has drawn all men to him, just as it's written.

As to translation, I should be asking that of you. The Greek Lexicon stated that the word "basileus" has this for biblical usage:

"leader of the people, prince, commander, lord of the land, king"

In other words, it's a masculine noun that speaks ONLY of a personage, not an inanimate thing or concept of a "kingdom."

The textual and grammatical construct of verse 10 also denotes this definition:

"of Christians, as to reign over the world with Christ in the millennial kingdom, Revelation 1:6; Revelation 5:10"

That warped version you quoted is therefore not at all consistent with the Interlinear from the Textus Receptus or any other credible source. It sounds more like a paraphrase, which is very much much akin to allegory, meaning that it can then be twisted into whatever the writer of the commentary or transliteration desires for it to mean. What you quoted may also be something from the Vaticanus or even the Siniaticus, both of which are known to have been edited as many as five times in places, as seen through thermal imaging of the papyri, and therefore questionable at best.

Never on earth? They clearly stated that they were the redeemed given that they were redeemed by the Blood of Christ. They weren't sinners in Heaven. They HAD to have been on the earth like all the rest of us.

MM

The fact is the Elders have never been part of the Earthly creation.

These are the Elders of Psalms 82:
God stands in the divine assembly;
among the divine beings He pronounces judgment.


Most Rabbi's claim this is who God is talking to in Genesis 1:26 because verse 27 shows singular image.

And God created humankind in the divine image,
creating it in the image of God

 

[Musicmaster]

The Greek from more than 6000 copies from around the world show that the credible Greek of that verse in Revelation 5:10 is the following:

καὶ ἐποίησας ἡμᾶς τῷ θεῷ ἡμῶν βασιλεῖς καὶ ἱερεῖς καὶ βασιλεύσομεν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς

The Greek, therefore, from the majority texts, read just as it's written in the KJV, and the NKJV. The more recent translations rely on a small hand full of texts that are thought by some to be more authoritative than the majority of texts due to age, but that's hard to believe that antiquity can so easily override the majority of more than 6000+ texts.

But, hey, people will follow whatever they so choose. The fact remains that the context in those passages speaks of the rule of believers, and to rule, one must be made into a figure of authority, which is precisely what matches with being kings, not pawns or governors or anything else of lower rank that has been commonly practiced among man-made kingdoms and empires on this earth.

MM

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The Greek from more than 6000 copies from around the world show that the credible Greek of that verse in Revelation 5:10 is the following:

καὶ ἐποίησας ἡμᾶς τῷ θεῷ ἡμῶν βασιλεῖς καὶ ἱερεῖς καὶ βασιλεύσομεν ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς

The Greek, therefore, from the majority texts, read just as it's written in the KJV, and the NKJV. The more recent translations rely on a small hand full of texts that are thought by some to be more authoritative than the majority of texts due to age, but that's hard to believe that antiquity can so easily override the majority of more than 6000+ texts.

But, hey, people will follow whatever they so choose. The fact remains that the context in those passages speaks of the rule of believers, and to rule, one must be made into a figure of authority, which is precisely what matches with being kings, not pawns or governors or anything else of lower rank that has been commonly practiced among man-made kingdoms and empires on this earth.

MM

I am using the 2nd Century Greek on file not the TR from the 10th century.

 

[Musicmaster]

The fact is the Elders have never been part of Earthly creation.

These are the Elders of Psalms 82:
God stands in the divine assembly;
among the divine beings He pronounces judgment.

For that to be true, you'll have to demonstrate what "divine assembly" was ever not of the seed of man, because for them to have been redemed by the Blood of Christ, they HAD to have been guilty of sin.

Fallen angels? Nope. Can't be them since fallen angels have no redemptive promise made to them, so who are they if not those who had dwelt on this earth as men?

The text makes it so clear.

MM