Predestination is misunderstood...

[maxamir]

Restoring something doesn't mean replacing something, but refurbishing it to its former estate.
When a piece of furniture is restored, you can tell it's a piece of furniture. Something about it has been broken or corrupted, but it's still identifiable. So it is with man. The image of God is still present; it has simply been marred and corrupted.
Incidentally, this is why murder is so condemned...by it, the image of God is destroyed.

to say that the image of God is simply marred would mean all that man needs is a renovation and not regeneration which means being made into a new creation which is why the command to be born again was given.

You have not addressed the Scriptures which define the image as being true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God. Does man have these things after the Fall? Is man still very good when God says he became only evil continually?

Man after the Fall did not lose his humanity, abilities or status above the animals but all of who man is and all of his abilities were affected by the Fall which is the reason for the Flood.

After the flood in Genesis 9:3, God declares to man that he can eat every moving thing. To ensure that every moving thing does not also include man, God reminds them in verse 6 that man who was originally created in His image and above the animals is not to be treated like a dog or killed and eaten like an animal (which was never made in His image), because man once bore the image of God.

Adam’s seed are like the children of a king that has lost his kingdom and crown, who should be treated in a respectful manner and different to the animals because they are able to once again wear a crown through another King that was promised to come from the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15). These are those chosen to be regenerated in Jesus Christ the eternal King.

All men are to therefore to be treated with respect because we are all equally born under the curse of our first parents and must realise that the only thing we deserve from God is His righteous justice, perfect judgement and eternal wrath because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).

If there is anything left of the image of God in man it is the truth that he has the ability in Christ to once again bear the image of God that was lost, which is why God stated he is not to be treated or killed like an animal (Gen 9:3-6) because he once bore the image of God in the day he was made (past tense) which Gen 5:1-2 agrees with and twice confirms it was the day man and woman were created and not after the Fall.

 

[maxamir]

What denomination teaches that?

I am not going to argue with you. I know you are wrong. I just want to know who put together what you are squeezing into sausage casings....

if you know that I am wrong then wouldn't you want to correct me if you call yourself a Christian?

Most denominations today teach a version of dispensationalism and the futurist eschatology connected with it but the onus is upon you to find out whether it is according to Scripture.

To help understand the different views of eschatology, I highly recommend the article below.

The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation

 

[maxamir]

Its Christ who placed Israel in prophesy. But, not in the center as you put it. For Israel in the future will serve Christ on earth after Christ returns to rule the Millennium nations.

Isaiah 65

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18

But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21
They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22
No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23
They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24
Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25
The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

the true Israel of God today is made up of people from all nations as was promised to Abraham and not just one nation which was a shadow and type and fulfilled in all those who are in Christ who are given new circumcised hearts.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

 

[Cameron143]

to say that the image of God is simply marred would mean all that man needs is a renovation and not regeneration which means being made into a new creation which is why the command to be born again was given.

You have not addressed the Scriptures which define the image as being true righteousness, holiness and an intimate knowledge of God. Does man have these things after the Fall? Is man still very good when God says he became only evil continually?

Man after the Fall did not lose his humanity, abilities or status above the animals but all of who man is and all of his abilities were affected by the Fall which is the reason for the Flood.

After the flood in Genesis 9:3, God declares to man that he can eat every moving thing. To ensure that every moving thing does not also include man, God reminds them in verse 6 that man who was originally created in His image and above the animals is not to be treated like a dog or killed and eaten like an animal (which was never made in His image), because man once bore the image of God.

Adam’s seed are like the children of a king that has lost his kingdom and crown, who should be treated in a respectful manner and different to the animals because they are able to once again wear a crown through another King that was promised to come from the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15). These are those chosen to be regenerated in Jesus Christ the eternal King.

All men are to therefore to be treated with respect because we are all equally born under the curse of our first parents and must realise that the only thing we deserve from God is His righteous justice, perfect judgement and eternal wrath because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23).

If there is anything left of the image of God in man it is the truth that he has the ability in Christ to once again bear the image of God that was lost, which is why God stated he is not to be treated or killed like an animal (Gen 9:3-6) because he once bore the image of God in the day he was made (past tense) which Gen 5:1-2 agrees with and twice confirms it was the day man and woman were created and notfter the Fall.

No it doesn't. He's dead and needs to be restored to life. He's still a man.
Now regeneration is what he needs. So to suggest I'm saying otherwise is incorrect. But he doesn't need to be made man again. He's still man, just lifeless man.

 

[maxamir]

It seems you are conflating the common phrase "the tribulation period" (used commonly to refer to the specific, future, LIMITED time-period immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 [i.e. a 7-yr period / 2520 days]) with that of the following (which is distinct from it):

Luke 21:23b-24 [in the "70ad" section of His Olivet Discourse (vv.12-24a,b)] -

"...for there shall be great distress [G318] in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations:
and Jerusalem shall be trodden down [comp. Rev11:2] of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."







[note: the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" referring to Gentile domination over Israel (think: Neb's dream / statue / image; with Neb as "head of gold") STARTED in 605/606bc... and which will not be CONCLUDED until Christ's (future) Second Coming to the earth at Rev19; "the TIMES of the Gentiles" NOT to be EQUATED with the concept of "the Church age" i.e. when Gentiles are coming to faith--This phrase is NOT speaking to that issue; and is also distinct from the phrase (and meaning of) "the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525]" in Rom11:25]




--"great DISTRESS [G318] in the land, and wrath upon this people" speaks of the events surrounding 70ad

--the common phrase "the tribulation period" speaks ONLY of the 7-yr period [2520 days] immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth at Rev19 (the time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 and 22:6 calls "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--NOT things transpiring over the course of some near-2000 years, as the Historicists have it)

I suppose Christ must have been wrong then when He said this:

Joh_16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

Tribulation is acquainted with suffering which all those who are in Christ Jesus are appointed to endure and promised to receive (Phi 1:29,2 Tim 3:12).

The Olivet Discourse in Matthew's Gospel mentions the soon coming tribulation to those in Jerusalem as well as the signs of the end of the age. Prophecy in Scripture tends to have a now and then fulfilment and as all Scripture is profitable for every man of God (2 Tim 3:16), so does prophecy prepare the Body of Christ as it did those who fled the Roman occupation to safety and it does for every Christian throughout this age before Christ's return.

Many indeed conclude that the fulfilment of the Gentiles would be just prior to Christ's return but the Gospel had already gone out into the ends of the known world before Paul's death (Rom 10:18) which was before 70AD and the destruction of everything associated with the Old Covenant system. The true Israel today are all those who are in Christ.

Revelation is not a chronological order of events that will happen but seven different views of the same event from different perspectives which culminates with the soon return of Christ. The millennium period is symbolic of long period of time in which we are currently in and the devil is currently being loosed and not in a thousand years time!

 

[maxamir]

Really.... do you ever think things through with all the facts?
Or, are you just to be programmed by someone for what appeals to your flesh?

To this day there continues to be real Jewish stock, though living as unbelievers.
What do you think Hitler was after?

Besides.... Look here!

​

Luke 21:23-24​

​

How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! ​

There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will ​

fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will ​

be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.​

Now think! Can you?

It says.. when the times of the Gentiles ends?

What will be left when it ends? More Gentiles??????????

You don't think clearly, Its muddled with hatred. If some warped teaching sits right with your bias?
You will never question what was actually written.

Having grown up in my younger years (before I became a Christian) I witnessed to hatred, and ignorance of certain evil (dumb) Gentiles who loved wrapping your antisemitic false teachings around themselves to form a nonsensical cloak to keep their cold hearts feeling warm in the cold world they live in.

Now.. go back to that secret room behind the wall, before I shoot my water pistol at that sneaky eye peering out...

We used to see that sort of imagery in old horror movies.
Its not Christian sentiment by any stretch of the imagination.
Christians do not hide to ambush others.

It will give others the creeps.

you are proving your ignorance by not realising that there are other schools of thought on prophecy besides your own which I also once held to vehemently. You are also confirming your lack of self control and proof of any valid arguments by resorting to slander.

You emphasised Gentiles but never described who they actually are. Most would say that they are everyone who is not of Israel but if there is no longer any people connected to the original Israelites then all are the same because Christ broke down the wall of division between the two (Eph 2:11-16) and made them one and those who had any connection to Israel were either converted to Christ or destroyed in and soon after 70AD as prophesied, along with the Old Covenant shadows and types.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The true Jew today is not one that is circumcised of the flesh but of the heart (Rom 2:28-29) and these are the true children of Abraham (Rom 4:16-17).

Those who call themselves Jew's today are not Semites and have no connection to Judea or the Israel of old but are part of the Khazarian Talmudic sect of Pharisees which Christ called imposters and of the Synagogue of Satan (Rev 2:9, 3:9).

 

[maxamir]

No it doesn't. He's dead and needs to be restored to life. He's still a man.
Now regeneration is what he needs. So to suggest I'm saying otherwise is incorrect. But he doesn't need to be made man again. He's still man, just lifeless man.

you are correct, he is spiritually dead and needs to be spiritually born again by the Holy Spirit who restores His image which was lost in the Fall when man spiritually died as God had warned in Genesis 2:17.

All after the fall, are born in the cursed image of Adam (Gen 5:3) , being slaves to sin (Joh 8:34) and Satan (2 Tim 2:26), his children (1 Jn 3:8-10), bearing his evil image (Joh 8:44) and need a new image which comes from Christ who is the Image of God (2 Cor 4:4).

 

[Genez]

you are correct, he is spiritually dead and needs to be spiritually born again by the Holy Spirit who restores His image which was lost in the Fall when man spiritually died as God had warned in Genesis 2:17.

All after the fall, are born in the cursed image of Adam (Gen 5:3) , being slaves to sin (Joh 8:34) and Satan (2 Tim 2:26), his children (1 Jn 3:8-10), bearing his evil image (Joh 8:44) and need a new image which comes from Christ who is the Image of God (2 Cor 4:4).

Well... you're really good at what you do.

Good at trying to please your chosen group you identify with.
You learned to gain their approval by saying all the right things they tell you to think..

Israel hold s a future separate from the Church.
Theirs will be a kingdom on the new earth.

Ours will be our home in heaven.

Sorry to see you flunking the course.

 

[studier]

To help understand the different views of eschatology, I highly recommend the article below.

The Returning King: A Guide to the Book of Revelation

Thanks for the link. IMO more of us should delve to some reasonable level of depth into the various schools of eschatological interpretation and drop the denominational hostilities on the intensely debated topic.

 

[Genez]

Thanks for the link. IMO more of us should delve to some reasonable level of depth into the various schools of eschatological interpretation and drop the denominational hostilities on the intensely debated topic.

Denominational hostilities must exist and are a part of God's plan.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of
you have God’s approval.

To agree to drop all hostilities is Satan getting those who are approved of God to compromise the truth for the sake of getting along with men. and no longer with Christ.

Its knowing that such pressures will be there is what makes the winner keep going when others want to settle things now and to call it quits...

Galatians 5:7-8

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?
That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.

The winners must at times run alone and not concern himself with what compromises others choose to accept as a means to get along....

The foundational essential doctrines is where we all can agree, but we must keep growing up beyond the foundational done so in Christ, with advancement in understanding doctrine that separates us from our childhood, while being as a child in the Lord.

grace and peace .............

 

[studier]

Denominational hostilities must exist and are a part of God's plan.

Thanks for the comments.

My comment specifically pertained to the hostilities re: eschatology. In my experience many of the social media debaters are not well-informed re: the various schools of interpretation on the topic. The linked book at least identified them and gave a bit of detail.

So, my comment did not mention anything about denominational hostilities in general.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of
you have God’s approval.

To agree to drop all hostilities is Satan getting those who are approved of God to compromise the truth for the sake of getting along with men. and no longer with Christ.

Its knowing that such pressures will be there is what makes the winner keep going when others want to settle things now and to call it quits...

1 Corinthians 11:

• Just picking up some context at 1Cor11:1 Paul is commanding the congregation to imitate him inasmuch as he imitates Christ and then proceeds in the context of dealing with the “traditions” he had taught 11:2.
• When we get to 11:16 Paul is speaking about assembling Christians being quarrelsome, so he straightens them out.
• 11:17-18 Paul clearly is chastising the divisiveness and not praising it. In 11:17 Paul’s telling them they are assembling for inferior reasons.
• 11:19 Paul does recognize that factions/sects are necessary so the dokimoi – the tested & proved, the genuine, the valuable – may be manifest among them.
• Paul will go on to speak of the Lord’s Supper – another of the traditions he had taught.
• So, this is really not about eschatology battles but what assemblies should look like. They should not be quarrelsome. Elsewhere Paul will cover Church discipline, putting sinning Christians out of assembly as necessary, respect and support of those teaching and pastoring, etc. I’m sure you know of these.

Although I’d prefer to see some more humility in eschatology discussions, this in no way suggests I think certain truth should not be contended for, even vigorously.

Its knowing that such pressures will be there is what makes the winner keep going when others want to settle things now and to call it quits...

Galatians 5:7-8

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth?
That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.

The winners must at times run alone and not concern himself with what compromises others choose to accept as a means to get along....

Galatians has to do with not submitting to a false gospel. The race has to do with beginning in Christ in Spirit and remaining therein to becoming matured/completed/perfected and reaching the telos/end in Christ in Spirit.

Galatians doesn't have to do with hostilities in eschatology discussions.

The foundational essential doctrines is where we all can agree, but we must keep growing up beyond the foundational done so in Christ, with advancement in understanding doctrine that separates us from our childhood, while being as a child in the Lord.

I wish we could all agree re: even foundational essential doctrines, but there remain plenty of disagreements there also. Advancement in learning and understanding is part of the maturity process, but there is more to it. Living it, being tested, continuing growth until the telos, and learning to deal with it all wisely always presents challenges. Maybe fewer as time goes on.

 

[Genez]

Thanks for the comments.

My comment specifically pertained to the hostilities re: eschatology. In my experience many of the social media debaters are not well-informed re: the various schools of interpretation on the topic. The linked book at least identified them and gave a bit of detail.

So, my comment did not mention anything about denominational hostilities in general.

Really? Did not mention it?

Thanks for the link. IMO more of us should delve to some reasonable level of depth into the various schools of eschatological interpretation and drop the denominational hostilities on the intensely debated topic.

But, we are not to drop them.

That was my point. And, the point of 1 Corinthians 11:18-19.

In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you,
and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of
you have God’s approval." ​

Those who find themselves having God's approval will keep on moving ahead and not want to change the subject.
Those who do not have God's approval?
They will only want to keep their position alive as long as they are not being refuted by another.

We all learn more this way than if we all agreed to simply disagree... If someone really has something other than opinion and method of presentation technique//// boring. Christianity should never be boring.

grace and peace ........

 

[studier]

But, we are not to drop them.

That was my point. And, the point of 1 Corinthians 11:18-19.

I'm not really certain what some of your answers mean, so I'll just start here for the time being. If you'd like to clarify anything else, we can discuss it also.

Where do see in the Text any mandate to treat another Christian with disrespect and hostility because they believe differently re: eschatology?

The context of 1Cor11 is quite clear. It seems you're pushing the context to basically say that hostility in eschatological discussions is OK since it will ultimately reveal the "winner" Christians. But the context concerns proper function in assemblies, head coverings, handling the Lord's supper orderly and not being drunk, and instruction on our Father's discipline. Prior context is about the proper handling of things that can affect the consciences of fellow Christians, and idolatry and sexual lust, etc.

If we take this talk of Christians being quarrelsome (11:16) and in this context see division/faction in a congregation (11:18), such faction is not a good thing but may be necessary (for a time) to reveal any adokimos (negated dokimos). So, we should really chase this down rather than assuming it means anything close to "winner" as you mentioned.

Also, this "faction" concept is not spoken of by Paul elsewhere as a good thing (necessary in 11:18 does not mean good). Paul uses the word in Gal5:20 as one of the works of the flesh (which we might consider when looking at dokimos being revealed in 1Cor11).

We all learn more this way than if we all agreed to simply disagree... If someone really has something other than opinion and method of presentation technique//// boring. Christianity should never be boring.

I don't care for the agree to disagree mantra either. But I don't see the alternative as disrespect and hostility among Christians for different readings of eschatology, of which there are at least 4 major ones and then some or several divisions within each of them.

I watched this morning a 1+ hour discussion re: a political topic between 2 very smart people, both well trained and experienced in debate. They posited that they were in 90% agreement with one another on most of the things they knew of one another's thinking on such matters. The guest began by saying that rather than speak of what they agreed upon, which would be "boring", they'd discuss what they disagreed upon and immediately and respectfully hit the host with something honest but potentially very confrontational and unexpected as I saw it. For the next hour they dealt with this with knowledge and respect. This 1+ hours was more appealing and insightful than 5 minutes on some of these "Christian" threads.

I'll watch MMA or a well written good guys vs. bad guys movie if I want to see hostility in action. At least the hostility has place and meaning.

I don't learn anything by being treated disrespectfully or listening to hostility that detracts from the discussion re: Truth. At this point such things are what's common and boring to me. The hostility typically replaces and reveals a lack of meaningful content.

 

[Genez]

I'm not really certain what some of your answers mean, so I'll just start here for the time being. If you'd like to clarify anything else, we can discuss it also.

Where do see in the Text any mandate to treat another Christian with disrespect and hostility because they believe differently re: eschatology?

The context of 1Cor11 is quite clear. It seems you're pushing the context to basically say that hostility in eschatological discussions is OK since it will ultimately reveal the "winner" Christians. But the context concerns proper function in assemblies, head coverings, handling the Lord's supper orderly and not being drunk, and instruction on our Father's discipline. Prior context is about the proper handling of things that can affect the consciences of fellow Christians, and idolatry and sexual lust, etc.

If we take this talk of Christians being quarrelsome (11:16) and in this context see division/faction in a congregation (11:18), such faction is not a good thing but may be necessary (for a time) to reveal any adokimos (negated dokimos). So, we should really chase this down rather than assuming it means anything close to "winner" as you mentioned.

Also, this "faction" concept is not spoken of by Paul elsewhere as a good thing (necessary in 11:18 does not mean good). Paul uses the word in Gal5:20 as one of the works of the flesh (which we might consider when looking at dokimos being revealed in 1Cor11).




I don't care for the agree to disagree mantra either. But I don't see the alternative as disrespect and hostility among Christians for different readings of eschatology, of which there are at least 4 major ones and then some or several divisions within each of them.

I watched this morning a 1+ hour discussion re: a political topic between 2 very smart people, both well trained and experienced in debate. They posited that they were in 90% agreement with one another on most of the things they knew of one another's thinking on such matters. The guest began by saying that rather than speak of what they agreed upon, which would be "boring", they'd discuss what they disagreed upon and immediately and respectfully hit the host with something honest but potentially very confrontational and unexpected as I saw it. For the next hour they dealt with this with knowledge and respect. This 1+ hours was more appealing and insightful than 5 minutes on some of these "Christian" threads.

I'll watch MMA or a well written good guys vs. bad guys movie if I want to see hostility in action. At least the hostility has place and meaning.

I don't learn anything by being treated disrespectfully or listening to hostility that detracts from the discussion re: Truth. At this point such things are what's common and boring to me. The hostility typically replaces and reveals a lack of meaningful content.

I am not "clinical" in my reasoning, sir.

Sometimes when two people wish to discuss something it ends up like a classical musician asking to play with a jazz band...

Its why God had Paul to be an apostle to the gentiles, and Peter to the Jews.

I am not sure if we two read each other, as we would normally expect to be understood...

 

[sawdust]

The context of 1Cor11 is quite clear. It seems you're pushing the context to basically say that hostility in eschatological discussions is OK since it will ultimately reveal the "winner" Christians.

He is saying they are inevitable, not ok. Therefore, we shouldn't get our knickers in a twist when they occur. Listen, learn, address the error and move on.

 

[studier]

He is saying they are inevitable, not ok. Therefore, we shouldn't get our knickers in a twist when they occur. Listen, learn, address the error and move on.

Who is saying, @Genez or Paul?

 

[studier]

I am not "clinical" in my reasoning, sir.

Sometimes when two people wish to discuss something it ends up like a classical musician asking to play with a jazz band...

Its why God had Paul to be an apostle to the gentiles, and Peter to the Jews.

I am not sure if we two read each other, as we would normally expect to be understood...

"Clinical" (and in quotes) meaning what?

 

[Genez]

Who is saying, @Genez or Paul?

So, if the King sends a messenger with a message from the King?

You will play that game?

How do you think?

 

[Genez]

He is saying they are inevitable, not ok. Therefore, we shouldn't get our knickers in a twist when they occur. Listen, learn, address the error and move on.

It puzzles me how some get what was said....
Making it time well spent. And, those who can not hear.
And, then insist upon wanting it explained just the same.

Instead, they should pray and get answers for themselves in God's timing from God.

If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously
to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." James 1:5

Its when God starts working through us personally, that whatever knowledge we have collected, finally gets put to good use.

We are caught up in a mystery. Its not taking a written test based upon memorization, but upon developing a God given intuition.

Angels are watching as that mystery unfolds.

grace and happiness...

 

[studier]

So, if the King sends a messenger with a message from the King?

You will play that game?

How do you think?

Nothing to add re: Scripture in context?