Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Rufus said:
As I said earlier, the Tares of the Church are everywhere. And this, too, is God's will, if you recall Jesus' words on the matter. Very many want to enter the kingdom of God on their terms instead of by the narrow door. But on the last day, Jesus will them that he never knew them!
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You really can't accept that it's the "same church" that Paul taught predestination in Christ to is the same church God threatened and commanded to Repent.

You even flat out deny Biblical Truth.

God would not command Repentance and Return to your first works if God did not KNOW YOU.
They were not Tares just backsliders.
 
Rufus said:
Yes...the Shiloh's of this world will very rarely come to see our biblical viewpoint. Only by the sheer grace of God will one very rarely see.
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I'm not perfect and if I get something wrong I like to admit that I'm wrong and learn from others. However, I cannot see his view of scripture and he cannot see my view. Therefore, we both learn nothing from each other. Maybe there will be another topic on which we have some agreement. Wouldn't that be nice!
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
God fore knew every human being.
I never said God predestined everyone because I believe God predestined Jesus so everyone could be saved through Him.
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Wrong. God never [fore] knew the non-elect in eternity (Mat 7:23). Moreover, if God knew every single person in eternity, then all men will be saved, according to Rom 8:29-30. What begins in this chain of redemption (foreknowledge of people) ends with their glorification.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
You really can't accept that it's the "same church" that Paul taught predestination in Christ to is the same church God threatened and commanded to Repent.

You even flat out deny Biblical Truth.

God would not command Repentance and Return to your first works if God did not KNOW YOU.
They were not Tares just backsliders.
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I don't reject anything. I reject your original notion that the" US" in Eph 1 = anyone and/or everyone.

I refuse to get into Rev 2 with you because it's a non sequitur with respect to whom Paul was addressing in his epistle to the Ephesians. Paul wrote to people he presumed for the most part were true believers. Period. That doesn't mean that each and every person in the Ephesian church was necessarily a Christian but most likely were. You bring up Rev 2 to try to distract from what you said earlier about who Paul's audience was. You would have never brought up Rev 2 if I hadn't quoted Eph 1:1 to prove how you conveniently ignore context when it doesn't support your false gospel.

Moreover, Revelation was written later after Ephesians, so evidently after so many years spiritual declension had set in on the Ephesian church. So, yes, there could have been many tares and/or backsliders in the church by the time John wrote Revelation.
 
By the way, Mr.Shiloh, did you miss my post 5250 that was in response to the biblical claim to which you alluded, which was: "God cannot lie"? It appears I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt after all about being able to reconcile a very apparent contradiction: God's Omnipotence, yet at the same time not so omnipotent since clearly his power of will is limited. How can God at once do all things and at the same time cannot do everything? If you can't reconcile Tit 1:2 with the omnipotence passages I cited in my aforementioned post, then I guess we'll have to add this Pauline passage to the list of lies God has told about himself. With all your early childhood theological training, one would think that you would have a ready answer for such theological problems. And, for that matter, a ready answer for how could God himself be a free moral agent if he isn't free to do anything he wants? And if God himself doesn't have free will, what would make you think any of moral creatures created in his image have it?
 
Rufus said:
Wrong. God never [fore] knew the non-elect in eternity (Mat 7:23). Moreover, if God knew every single person in eternity, then all men will be saved, according to Rom 8:29-30. What begins in this chain of redemption (foreknowledge of people) ends with their glorification.
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Why are you putting words into my mouth I never said?
You got a problem with the truth?
Where did I say God fore knew people not saved in eternity?
 
Rufus said:
I don't reject anything. I reject your original notion that the" US" in Eph 1 = anyone and/or everyone.

I refuse to get into Rev 2 with you because it's a non sequitur with respect to whom Paul was addressing in his epistle to the Ephesians. Paul wrote to people he presumed for the most part were true believers. Period. That doesn't mean that each and every person in the Ephesian church was necessarily a Christian but most likely were. You bring up Rev 2 to try to distract from what you said earlier about who Paul's audience was. You would have never brought up Rev 2 if I hadn't quoted Eph 1:1 to prove how you conveniently ignore context when it doesn't support your false gospel.

Moreover, Revelation was written later after Ephesians, so evidently after so many years spiritual declension had set in on the Ephesian church. So, yes, there could have been many tares and/or backsliders in the church by the time John wrote Revelation.
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I already made a post the us and we in Ephesians 1:4 are the Ephesians.

You either struggle with short term memory or literally have no idea what people are saying to you or just think this is what is being said.

You got issues dude with claiming people say things they don't ever say.

No wonder your Biblical view is as horrific as it is.

Even other Reformed posters had to warn you on this thread.
 
Rufus said:
By the way, Mr.Shiloh, did you miss my post 5250 that was in response to the biblical claim to which you alluded, which was: "God cannot lie"? It appears I shouldn't have given you the benefit of the doubt after all about being able to reconcile a very apparent contradiction: God's Omnipotence, yet at the same time not so omnipotent since clearly his power of will is limited. How can God at once do all things and at the same time cannot do everything? If you can't reconcile Tit 1:2 with the omnipotence passages I cited in my aforementioned post, then I guess we'll have to add this Pauline passage to the list of lies God has told about himself. With all your early childhood theological training, one would think that you would have a ready answer for such theological problems. And, for that matter, a ready answer for how could God himself be a free moral agent if he isn't free to do anything he wants? And if God himself doesn't have free will, what would make you think any of moral creatures created in his image have it?
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I answered your 5250 on the very next post 5251.

You really suffer with memory issues, don't you?

No wonder you make these claims about me saying things I never said.

You need to pray to God for a miracle.

You probably think miracles have ceased.
 
I would be willing to anoint you with oil, lay my hands upon you, and pray in faith in the Name of Jesus for your healing but I also fear you think you're so holy that God isn't going to help you any way.
 
Rufus said:
What I wrote yesterday was to show that we cannot understand how the will of God and the free moral agency of man, when they intersect, work. That is beyond our finite understanding. Also, there is not only the direct decretive will of God to contend with in scripture (e.g. Gen 3:15) but his indirect permissive will, as well (Mat 19:8; Rom 1:24, etc.). When God withdraws his restraining grace from sinners, this can only result in them sinning more. Yet, it cannot be said that God caused them to sin, since they were never entitled to his grace in the first place.
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You still haven't answered my questions.
PaulThomson said:
I don't have contempt for God's grace. I have problems with the parody of grace that you are presenting as if it were biblical.

What have you ever done whether good or evil, that you believe God did not decree it, did not empower you to do it, and did not put the desire into your heart to want to do it?

Name one thing?
 
No. I am asking Rufus a question he seems unwilling to give a straight answer to.
Rufus said:
"We are this and that because God chose US [to be] in Him before the foundation of the world. And God also "predestined US to be adopted as his sons through Christ Jesus". It wasn't Jesus who was predestined to be adopted. :rolleyes:

There's nothing you won't do to support your personal version of the Gospel, is there?
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Why did you add "[to be]" to the scripture.
There's nothing you won't do to support your personal version of the Gospel, is there?
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
It says we are holy and blameless and adopted sons because of Jesus.
This is what was predestined.
That Believers would be holy and blameless and adopted sons because of Jesus.
So Jesus is the only One who is predestined here to fulfill all of these things for us.
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We are not adopted sons. We are begotten sons and daughters who have received the spirit of adoption. We will not be adopted until the resurrection, the redemption of our bodies. Adoption in the first century AD (initiation into full responsibility in a father's business) was not what we consider adoption in 2024 (becoming a legal member of a new family).
 
PaulThomson said:
We are not adopted sons. We are begotten sons and daughters who have received the spirit of adoption. We will not be adopted until the resurrection, the redemption of our bodies. Adoption in the first century AD (initiation into full responsibility in a father's business) was not what we consider adoption in 2024 (becoming a legal member of a new family).
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5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Why are you putting words into my mouth I never said?
You got a problem with the truth?
Where did I say God fore knew people not saved in eternity?[/QUOTE]

You're totally shot. You don't even remember what you wrote yesterday:

"God fore knew every human being."

So, now you're going to say "every human being" is only some human beings? Gonna sing a different tune now, are you?
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PaulThomson said:
No. I am asking Rufus a question he seems unwilling to give a straight answer to.


Why did you add "[to be]" to the scripture.
There's nothing you won't do to support your personal version of the Gospel, is there?
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I added it for clarification since we're time-bound creatures. I know fully well God chose his people in Christ in eternity. All his elect were in Him before time began. Of course, what God decreed in eternity WILL in the future come to past.
 
PaulThomson said:
You still haven't answered my questions.
PaulThomson said:
I don't have contempt for God's grace. I have problems with the parody of grace that you are presenting as if it were biblical.

What have you ever done whether good or evil, that you believe God did not decree it, did not empower you to do it, and did not put the desire into your heart to want to do it?

Name one thing?
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You still don't get it. I totally believe in the Sovereignty of God, and that he not only sustains this universe by his power moment by moment, but that he directs the hearts of the sons of men (sinners and saints alike) as he pleases -- and this without violating man's free moral agency. How he does these things is beyond human comprehension just like the Trinity is, or the Incarnation of Christ -- yet I believe even what I can't comprehend.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
I already made a post the us and we in Ephesians 1:4 are the Ephesians.

You either struggle with short term memory or literally have no idea what people are saying to you or just think this is what is being said.

You got issues dude with claiming people say things they don't ever say.

No wonder your Biblical view is as horrific as it is.

Even other Reformed posters had to warn you on this thread.
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My memory is fine thank you. But originally you did not claim that the recipients of Paul's letter was the Ephesian Church. You said this about the "us" in your 5265:

Shiloh said:
It just says us.
US can be anyone.
It only means you because you say it means you.
But I read no names anywhere.

So, who is the one with the memory issue here? And I'm being very kind by limiting your problem to mere senility or too many dead memory cells.
 
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