Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[FollowerofShiloh]

We all come into this world as rebellious creatures. God is not under any obligation to save any of us at all. We should therefore be ever thankful that He saved us when others remain in a lost state!

I believe in this same sentiment myself

But if you believe in Predestination, isn't it true if some are predestined to be saved it means the others are predestined not to be saved?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Predestined doesn't mean forced

Predestination had before previsión

I agree, that's why I believe everyone was predestined to be saved and because no one is forced only a few are saved.

 

[Rufus]

Are you calling Peter a liar?

10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election.

Peter shows us we are part of the process (Election) but it's our job to confirm being Elect.

The spiritual inventory checklist is just that and no more! I explained the purpose for Peter's exhortation. Peter is not telling any of his readers that they have the spiritual power to initiate their own salvation.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The spiritual inventory checklist is just that and no more! I explained the purpose for Peter's exhortation. Peter is not telling any of his readers that they have the spiritual power to initiate their own salvation.

I never said anything about initiating so why are you going there?

 

[PaulThomson]

As Shakespeare famously said:

All the world’s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts...

We mere mortals are merely players on the world stage of God's Redemptive History. We neither wrote the script or are directing our own roles or the roles of anyone else. But we do willingly play our many parts -- whether as saints or sinners. No matter what role God has appointed for us, we're all in!

And the Holy Word of God bears this truth out! I don't have to rely on Shakespeare -- as brilliant as his philosophical insight was.

Job 23:13-14
13 "But He is unique and who can turn Him?
And what His soul desires, that He does.
14 "For He performs what is appointed for me,
And many such decrees are with Him.
NASB

And,

Job 12:11-25
11 "Does not the ear test words,As the palate tastes its food? 12 "Wisdom is with aged men, With long life is understanding. 13 "With Him are wisdom and might; To Him belong counsel and understanding. 14 "Behold, He tears down, and it cannot be rebuilt; He imprisons a man, and there can be no release. 15 "Behold, He restrains the waters, and they dry up; And He sends them out, and they inundate the earth. 16 "With Him are strength and sound wisdom, The misled and the misleader belong to Him. 17 "He makes counselors walk barefoot, And makes fools of judges. 18 "He loosens the bond of kings, And binds their loins with a girdle. 19 "He makes priests walk barefoot, And overthrows the secure ones. 20 "He deprives the trusted ones of speech, And takes away the discernment of the elders. 21 "He pours contempt on nobles, And loosens the belt of the strong. 22 "He reveals mysteries from the darkness,And brings the deep darkness into light. 23 "He makes the nations great, then destroys them; He enlarges the nations, then leads them away. 24 "He deprives of intelligence the chiefs of the earth's people, And makes them wander in a pathless waste. 25 "They grope in darkness with no light, And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.
NASB

And,

Ps 37:23
23 The steps of a man are established by the Lord;
And He delights in his way.
NASB

And,

Ps 110:3
3 Thy people will volunteer freely in the day of Thy power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Thy youth are to Thee as the dew.
NASB

And,

Prov 16:1
6 The plans of the heart belong to man,
But the answer of the tongue is from the Lord.
NASB

And,

Prov 16:4
4 The Lord has made everything for its own purpose,
Even the wicked for the day of evil.
NASB

And,

Prov 16:9
9 The mind of man plans his way,
But the Lord directs his steps.
NASB

And,

Prov 19:21
21 Many are the plans in a man's heart,
But the counsel of the Lord, it will stand.
NASB

And,
Prov 16:33
33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But its every decision is from the Lord.
NASB

You see....there's no such thing as luck or chance or coincidence. These are but mere constructs of finite, carnal minds in their vain attempts to explain the incomprehensible, such as the thoughts and ways of God which are unlike ours (Isa 55:8-9).

And re Prov 16:1, 9; 19:21, did God consult with Job before he decided to test him by tossing his godly servant to the roaring lion to torment to see whether or not Job would remain faithful to God or curse him?

Or what about Abimelech in Gen 20 who had grand designs on Abraham's wife Sara, yet God did not let the pagan king touch her? Was the king just a puppet whose strings God pulled?

Or what about Balaam who was commissioned by the wicked Moabite king Balak to curse Israel (Num 22) even though God had already blessed them? But Balaam refused to go with Moabite princes that Balak had sent because God would not let him go. But finally God relented and permitted Balaam to return to Balak on the condition that Balaam obey God completely. But even so, God was "very angry" when he departed. But Balaam still could not curse Israel, for he could only speak what God commanded him! Balaam, too, was just another "puppet" on God's string?

Or what about the self-willed prophet Jonah who clearly had his own ideas on how to deal with the pagans in Nineveh? Who won that battle of the wills? Who wound up, after all, preaching the "gospel of repentance" to the Ninevites? I suppose Jonah was just another mindless puppet on a string?

You synergists speak of things you do not know. You try to reduce the Eternal God to the severe limitations of your carnal, finite minds. (Talk about a fool's errand!) You have no idea at all that God is at once Incomprehensible and Comprehensible. He is the former because He has kept many things hidden from us, so that we'll never understand him exhaustively; and yet he is also the latter because he has revealed many other things to us, which provides us with real and substantial understanding. Have you never read:

Deut 29:29
29 The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law?
NIV

What God has kept secret and cannot be known by us and what He has revealed that he wants us to know and understand should inspire fear in our hearts of Him. For his saints, that would be a reverent, awe-struck fear; for sinners it should be the kind of fear that Jesus talked about in Lk 12:5.

Eccl 3:14
14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him.
NASB

Yet sadly, I find so little of the fear of the Lord in the writings of most posters here. Instead, I find rampant idolatry; for many have created God in their own image.. It's no wonder Paul concluded God's indictment against mankind with:

Rom 3:18
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
NIV

You wrote a great deal, but did not answer my questions.

PaulThomson said:
I don't have contempt for God's grace. I have problems with the parody of grace that you are presenting as if it were biblical.

What have you ever done whether good or evil, that you believe God did not decree it, did not empower you to do it, and did not put the desire into your heart to want to do it?

 

[BillyBob]

I believe in this same sentiment myself

But if you believe in Predestination, isn't it true if some are predestined to be saved it means the others are predestined not to be saved?

To answer your question, YES!

I believe that scripture supports the fact that God chose a particular people to be His. God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.
As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).
It is man's tendency to believe otherwise. Most men claim that God would not chose some and not others. However, each of us should ask, Does not God have the right to do with us as He Wishes? Scripture states that He both can and will do as He pleases: He has mercy on whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes (Rom. 9:18).

As Christians, we should all take comfort in the fact that God would have done no one an injustice if it had been his will to leave the entire human race in sin and under the curse, and to condemn them on account of their sin. But, He chose some out of mercy and love to be HIS PEOPLE. Therefore, be thankful that you are among the chosen!

 

[Rufus]

You wrote a great deal, but did not answer my questions.

PaulThomson said:
I don't have contempt for God's grace. I have problems with the parody of grace that you are presenting as if it were biblical.

What have you ever done whether good or evil, that you believe God did not decree it, did not empower you to do it, and did not put the desire into your heart to want to do it?

What I wrote yesterday was to show that we cannot understand how the will of God and the free moral agency of man, when they intersect, work. That is beyond our finite understanding. Also, there is not only the direct decretive will of God to contend with in scripture (e.g. Gen 3:15) but his indirect permissive will, as well (Mat 19:8; Rom 1:24, etc.). When God withdraws his restraining grace from sinners, this can only result in them sinning more. Yet, it cannot be said that God caused them to sin, since they were never entitled to his grace in the first place.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

To answer your question, YES!

I believe that scripture supports the fact that God chose a particular people to be His. God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.
As the apostle says, He chose us (not because we were, but) so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love (Eph. 1:4).
It is man's tendency to believe otherwise. Most men claim that God would not chose some and not others. However, each of us should ask, Does not God have the right to do with us as He Wishes? Scripture states that He both can and will do as He pleases: He has mercy on whom he wishes, and he hardens whom he wishes (Rom. 9:18).

As Christians, we should all take comfort in the fact that God would have done no one an injustice if it had been his will to leave the entire human race in sin and under the curse, and to condemn them on account of their sin. But, He chose some out of mercy and love to be HIS PEOPLE. Therefore, be thankful that you are among the chosen!

Ephesians 1:4...4 as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

The only one predestined in verse 4 is "in him, Jesus."
Are you saying it was not God's plan for Jesus to Die and Save us before the foundation of the world?
Because this is what this verse is claiming that Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to be Saviour.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Just because you and others here aren't fond of Calvin does not necessarily mean that the Five Doctrines of Grace he taught aren't biblically sound.

I'm not "fond" of Calvin because of who he was in his personal life. But that aside, he had a fundamental misunderstanding of who God is. No understanding of His character in the least.

 

[Rufus]

I don't think God is obligated to save those who are even faithful to Him. But He also cannot lie.

What precisely do you think that means when scripture says "God cannot lie"?

First of all, are we to take that literally since many other scriptures teach that nothing is impossible with God (Lk 1:37; Mat 19:26; Gen 18:14; Jer 32:17, etc., etc.). But assuming you can reconcile this apparent contradiction, then we're still left with the question: WHY is this Almighty and Omnipotent God of this Universe unable to do something? What if God wanted to lie? Would he still be unable? And if so, what exactly is restricting his power? Is external control being exerted upon God so that he cannot do certain things such as lie, deny himself, sin? Or does He have an internal control intrinsic to Himself that limits his will power? And since he must be subject to one of these controls, can it truly be said that God is a free moral agent, since he's not free to do all things?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What precisely do you think that means when scripture says "God cannot lie"?

First of all, are we to take that literally since many other scriptures teach that nothing is impossible with God (Lk 1:37; Mat 19:26; Gen 18:14; Jer 32:17, etc., etc.). But assuming you can reconcile this apparent contradiction, then we're still left with the question: WHY is this Almighty and Omnipotent God of this Universe unable to do something? What if God wanted to lie? Would he still be unable? And if so, what exactly is restricting his power? Is external control being exerted upon God so that he cannot do certain things such as lie, deny himself, sin? Or does He have an internal control intrinsic to Himself that limits his will power? And since he must be subject to one of these controls, can it truly be said that God is a free moral agent, since he's not free to do all things?

Jesus gave example of on Judgement Day saying to those who claimed to do great things in His Name that they did not do the "Will of the Father."
That indicates if you do the Will of the Father you don't get the same Judgement.
To me, God would not Lie about that and send people who do the Will of the Father to hell.

And there's literally multiple examples like that throughout the Bible.

 

[BillyBob]

Ephesians 1:4...4 as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

The only one predestined in verse 4 is "in him, Jesus."
Are you saying it was not God's plan for Jesus to Die and Save us before the foundation of the world?
Because this is what this verse is claiming that Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to be Saviour.

It would be well for you to make the following scripture an in-depth study to gain a better understanding of the true meaning!

Ephesians 1:3-10
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

 

[Magenta]

What have you ever done whether good or evil, that you believe God did not decree it, did
not empower you to do it, and did not put the desire into your heart to want to do it?

Are you making God the author of evil? .

 

[Magenta]

It would be well for you to make the following scripture an in-depth study to gain a better understanding of the true meaning!

Ephesians 1:3-10
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Ephesians 1:3 + Philippians 2:13

From Ephesians 1:4-6

 

[Rufus]

Ephesians 1:4...4 as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world

The only one predestined in verse 4 is "in him, Jesus."
Are you saying it was not God's plan for Jesus to Die and Save us before the foundation of the world?
Because this is what this verse is claiming that Jesus was chosen before the foundation of the world to be Saviour.

So...in your world, the verse should read: "For he chose him in us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless is his sight"?

Have you considered your interpretation doesn't fit the immediate context? Who was blessed in v.3? And who was predestined to be adopted as sons in v.5: us or Jesus Christ?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It would be well for you to make the following scripture an in-depth study to gain a better understanding of the true meaning!

Ephesians 1:3-10
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

But it all says Jesus who we are predestined to be blameless, righteous, adopted through.
None of it says we did it on our own.
It just shows Jesus is how we are able to be these things because it was Jesus who was predestined to accomplish these things for us.

We are this and that because being in Him (Jesus) and through Him (Jesus) is what it all claims.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So...in your world, the verse should read: "For he chose him in us before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless is his sight"?

Have you considered your interpretation doesn't fit the immediate context? Who was blessed in v.3? And who was predestined to be adopted as sons in v.5: us or Jesus Christ?

But it all says Jesus who we are predestined to be blameless, righteous, adopted through.
None of it says we did it on our own.
It just shows Jesus is how we are able to be these things because it was Jesus who was predestined to accomplish these things for us.

We are this and that because being in Him (Jesus) and through Him (Jesus) is what it all claims.

 

[Rufus]

But it all says Jesus who we are predestined to be blameless, righteous, adopted through.[/B]
None of it says we did it on our own.
It just shows Jesus is how we are able to be these things because it was Jesus who was predestined to accomplish these things for us.

We are this and that because being in Him (Jesus) and through Him (Jesus) is what it all claims.

What I highlighted above is incoherent. Wanna try again? "Jesus who we are..."???

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

What I highlighted above is incoherent. Wanna try again? "Jesus who we are..."???

It says we are holy and blameless and adopted sons because of Jesus.
This is what was predestined.
That Believers would be holy and blameless and adopted sons because of Jesus.
So Jesus is the only One who is predestined here to fulfill all of these things for us.

 

[Rufus]

But it all says Jesus who we are predestined to be blameless, righteous, adopted through.
None of it says we did it on our own.
It just shows Jesus is how we are able to be these things because it was Jesus who was predestined to accomplish these things for us.

We are this and that because being in Him (Jesus) and through Him (Jesus) is what it all claims.

"We are this and that because God chose US [to be] in Him before the foundation of the world. And God also "predestined US to be adopted as his sons through Christ Jesus". It wasn't Jesus who was predestined to be adopted.

There's nothing you won't do to support your personal version of the Gospel, is there?