A Visible Sign of the Invisible

[Wansvic]

Acts 8:12-24 Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.

How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit;

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body. (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:6)

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel - God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different, the sign comes from the inside out when God takes up residence in one's body.

 

[timemeddler]

Where I live there's a group calling themselves Apostolic Lutherans that from what I gather put speaking in tongues in the realm of being essential to salvation. Reading about them online, they usually refer to Mark 16:17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

They don't mention the other signs in verse 18.

They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I'm open to the idea of tongues being the most common indicator, however at the handful of baptisms I've been to, I don't recall any strange babble, but then I wasn't really listening for it either.

The sermon on the mount comes to mind where Christ mentions one of the "signs"

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

He doesn't specifically list tongues or other signs, but no one would likely have known what he was talking about, but I can extrapolate that signs themselves aren't always definitive. Anyway you've probably heard all this before. I admit sometimes a sign like the bible talks about would be really re-affirming for me, not counting my ability to handle snakes, I was always able to do that.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

That was then. However, it is not so today or even later in the apostolic churches. See Philippians 1. There is no mention of tongues.

 

[Wansvic]

Where I live there's a group calling themselves Apostolic Lutherans that from what I gather put speaking in tongues in the realm of being essential to salvation....
I'm open to the idea of tongues being the most common indicator, however at the handful of baptisms I've been to, I don't recall any strange babble, but then I wasn't really listening for it either. ...

It is true some people experience receiving the Holy Ghost when they get water baptized but many do not. Scripture confirms both experiences are essential elements of the NT rebirth. However, the sequence differs as seen in the detailed conversion accounts. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) Also, Jesus advised what to do if the experience does not spontaneously occur. "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

...
The sermon on the mount comes to mind where Christ mentions one of the "signs"

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

He doesn't specifically list tongues or other signs, but no one would likely have known what he was talking about, but I can extrapolate that signs themselves aren't always definitive. Anyway you've probably heard all this before. I admit sometimes a sign like the bible talks about would be really re-affirming for me, not counting my ability to handle snakes, I was always able to do that.

The things Jesus pointed out in Matthew would fall into the category of spiritual gifts. Whether or not they were authentic is certainly questionable. Especially since Jesus said, I NEVER knew you. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22-23) Immediately afterward Jesus explains the need to lay a proper foundation. (Matt. 24-27) The implication is the individuals had a foundation problem. All are required to lay a foundation and afterward go on to maturity. (Luke 6:1-2, Hebrews 6:47-49)

It's very important to notice in all detailed accounts of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit everyone spoke in tongues. (see #1 below) This is not the case concerning the spiritual gift; only 2 or 3 are to speak in tongues and another interpret. (1 Cor. 14:27-28) All others are to remain silent and speak to themselves and God. (see #2) This proves there's a distinction

Keep in mind scripture records the manifestation of tongues for different purposes:
1. The sign of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 10:44-45, 19:6)
2. Unknown tongues used in personal prayer. (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 28)
3. Spiritual gift of tongues for public messages. Not everyone will be used to operate in this gift. (1 Cor. 14:5)

 

[Wansvic]

That was then. However, it is not so today or even later in the apostolic churches. See Philippians 1. There is no mention of tongues.

The word indicates no one is exempt, everyone is required to lay a proper foundation. (Hebrews 6:47-49, Luke 6:1-2)

It's very important to notice in all detailed accounts of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit everyone spoke in tongues. (see #1 below) This is not the case concerning the spiritual gift; only 2 or 3 are to speak in tongues and another interpret. (1 Cor. 14:27-28) All others are to remain silent and speak to themselves and God. (see #2) This proves there's a distinction.

Scripture records the manifestation of tongues for different purposes:
1. The sign of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 10:44-45, 19:6)
2. Unknown tongues used in personal prayer. (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 28)
3. Spiritual gift of tongues for public messages. Not everyone will be used to operate in this gift. (1 Cor. 14:5)

 

[timemeddler]

It is true some people experience receiving the Holy Ghost when they get water baptized but many do not. Scripture confirms both experiences are essential elements of the NT rebirth. However, the sequence differs as seen in the detailed conversion accounts. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16) "

1. The sign of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 10:44-45, 19:6)
2. Unknown tongues used in personal prayer. (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 28)
3. Spiritual gift of tongues for public messages. Not everyone will be used to operate in this gift. (1 Cor. 14:5)

lets get into the verses then
acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

first case of tongues, note "all of them filled with the holy spirit" and "as the spirit enabled them"

then when when accused of being drunk

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

pouring out the holy spirit, not necessarily tongues and still everyone who call on the name of the lord will be saved.

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

you will recieve the gift of the holy spirit, the type of gift isn't specified.

acts 8-12-18
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles[a] performed, he was amazed.

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

unless I'm missing something, it doesn't specify how the holy spirit manifested itself here.

acts 9:17-18
So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.

sorry, I see a miracle of the holy spirit here, no mention of tongues.

acts 10-43-48, here tongues occur by themselves and are used as a sign, particularly for the jews. of note here is this happens before baptism.

acts 19 1-6 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland1 country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in2 the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

This is an interesting one. Evidently these people had missed a lot in their spiritual education to not know about the holy spirit. Then then after being brought up to speed they showed two signs tongues and prophesying. I kind of wonder what they might have prophesied about? We aren't told if all of them prophesied and spoke tongues, or whether some prophesied and some spoke tongues, or all of them prophesied and a few spoke tongues. What matters is the holy spirit.

Anyway, it was a good read. Sorry I cant get behind the idea of tongues as an essential part of salvation, I don't see that. I can understand the rational behind baptism, but where tongues are mentioned I read it only as being a sign and indicator and not the only one, no more no less.

 

[Wansvic]

lets get into the verses then
acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

first case of tongues, note "all of them filled with the holy spirit" and "as the spirit enabled them"
then when when accused of being drunk

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

pouring out the holy spirit, not necessarily tongues and still everyone who call on the name of the lord will be saved.

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

you will recieve the gift of the holy spirit, the type of gift isn't specified.
...

The manifestation of tongues is the sign that the Holy Spirit was received:
"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." Acts 2:33

Peter said everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2:21) The account goes on to reveal when this occurs. Peter commanded everyone to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin. This is water baptism as confirmed elsewhere in scripture.

Peter's comment about the gift is not a reference to spiritual gifts. Peter's statement is clear, Those who place their trust in Jesus and repent, and submit to water baptism are promised they will receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the gift.

Notice Jesus words reveal this truth as well:
"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13

 

[Wansvic]

...
acts 8-12-18
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles[a] performed, he was amazed.

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

unless I'm missing something, it doesn't specify how the holy spirit manifested itself here.
...

It is true that the Acts 8 account does not specifically mention tongues. However, it does reveal receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable. And as I mentioned, we know it was a supernatural sign. Simon the Magician wanted to buy the ability to lay hands on people and cause something miraculous to happen.

One can easily conclude that the Samaritans did speak in tongues since Acts 2:4, 10:43-44, and 19:6 set the pattern. (2 Cor. 13:1, Matt. 18:16) Each account confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Scripture speaks of nothing other than tongues confirming the initial experience.

The Acts 19 account is specific. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they
1.spake with tongues,
2. and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve." (Acts 19:6-7) Verse 7 points out that all of the 12 men spoke in tongues AND prophesied.

"These Ephesians also “prophesied” after they received the Spirit. Prophecy is “the speaking forth of the mind and counsel of God” or “the forth-telling of the will of God.” According to Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, one definition of the verb to prophesy is to “speak under inspiration.” This can mean the gift of prophecy in which God speaks a direct message through human lips (I Corinthians 12:10), or it can mean any anointed preaching, praising, and testifying (I Corinthians 11:4-5; Revelation 19:10). Just as the 120 on Pentecost told of the wonderful works of God as they spoke in tongues (Acts 2:11), so these Ephesians apparently prophesied as they spoke in tongues. Possibly, the Spirit anointed these men to speak words in their own language after they had spoken in tongues. At any rate, prophecy resulted from the Spirit baptism but was not a sign such as tongues, because of these facts: (1) Tongues preceded prophecy, so tongues was the initial sign. (2) No other account of Spirit baptism mentions prophecy, so it is not a uniform sign. (3) Tongues is readily identifiable as a supernatural, miraculous sign while prophecy is not, especially with respect to a nonbelieving observer." Excerpt "New Birth-Bernard"

 

[Wansvic]

lets get into the verses then
acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

first case of tongues, note "all of them filled with the holy spirit" and "as the spirit enabled them"

then when when accused of being drunk

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 “ ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

pouring out the holy spirit, not necessarily tongues and still everyone who call on the name of the lord will be saved.

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

you will recieve the gift of the holy spirit, the type of gift isn't specified.

acts 8-12-18
12 But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed, and after being baptized he continued with Philip. And seeing signs and great miracles[a] performed, he was amazed.

14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, 15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. 18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money

unless I'm missing something, it doesn't specify how the holy spirit manifested itself here.

acts 9:17-18
So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.

sorry, I see a miracle of the holy spirit here, no mention of tongues.

acts 10-43-48, here tongues occur by themselves and are used as a sign, particularly for the jews. of note here is this happens before baptism.

acts 19 1-6 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland1 country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. 2 And he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 And Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in2 the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

This is an interesting one. Evidently these people had missed a lot in their spiritual education to not know about the holy spirit. Then then after being brought up to speed they showed two signs tongues and prophesying. I kind of wonder what they might have prophesied about? We aren't told if all of them prophesied and spoke tongues, or whether some prophesied and some spoke tongues, or all of them prophesied and a few spoke tongues. What matters is the holy spirit.

Anyway, it was a good read. Sorry I cant get behind the idea of tongues as an essential part of salvation, I don't see that. I can understand the rational behind baptism, but where tongues are mentioned I read it only as being a sign and indicator and not the only one, no more no less.

I was confused by a couple things you brought up in your response. Such as, tongues not being mentioned in Acts 8 and 9:17-18. It was at that point that I realized you misunderstood the point I was making in my post.

My post was actually in reference to your comment about not hearing people speak in tongues when they were baptized in water. My response was as follows: "It is true some people experience receiving the Holy Ghost when they get water baptized but many do not. Scripture confirms both experiences are essential elements of the NT rebirth. However, the sequence differs as seen in the detailed conversion accounts. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)"

Note the scriptures attest to the truth that both experiences are necessary regardless of the sequence of events. And follow the required witness of 2-3 scriptures. (Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1)

In Acts 2, we see both sequences. 120 received the Holy Spirit prior to Peter presenting the baptism command that applies to everyone. While others obeyed Peter and were baptized in water first. We can be confident the 3000 did receive the Holy Spirit at some point because as revealed it is a promise for all those who obey. (Acts 2:39-41)

Two scriptures-same sequence:
Acts 9, 22:16 Paul received the Holy Spirit and afterward obeyed the water baptism command.
Acts 10 Cornelius and others received Holy Spirit and afterward submitted to the water baptism command.

Two scriptures-same sequence:
Acts 8 Samaritans submitted to water baptism and days later received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19 12 individuals were rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus, and afterward received the Holy Spirit.

 

[timemeddler]

I was confused by a couple things you brought up in your response. Such as, tongues not being mentioned in Acts 8 and 9:17-18. It was at that point that I realized you misunderstood the point I was making in my post.

My post was actually in reference to your comment about not hearing people speak in tongues when they were baptized in water. My response was as follows: "It is true some people experience receiving the Holy Ghost when they get water baptized but many do not. Scripture confirms both experiences are essential elements of the NT rebirth. However, the sequence differs as seen in the detailed conversion accounts. (Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)"

Note the scriptures attest to the truth that both experiences are necessary regardless of the sequence of events. And follow the required witness of 2-3 scriptures. (Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1)

In Acts 2, we see both sequences. 120 received the Holy Spirit prior to Peter presenting the baptism command that applies to everyone. While others obeyed Peter and were baptized in water first. We can be confident the 3000 did receive the Holy Spirit at some point because as revealed it is a promise for all those who obey. (Acts 2:39-41)

Two scriptures-same sequence:
Acts 9, 22:16 Paul received the Holy Spirit and afterward obeyed the water baptism command.
Acts 10 Cornelius and others received Holy Spirit and afterward submitted to the water baptism command.

Two scriptures-same sequence:
Acts 8 Samaritans submitted to water baptism and days later received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19 12 individuals were rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus, and afterward received the Holy Spirit.

No argument from me regarding the fact that we receive the holy spirit as part of salvation. My only objection is if and how it's required to manifest itself to others. I'm not sure what mathew 18:16 and corinthians 13:1 have to do with this, It's pretty direct references to the jewish policy of handling accusations, Deuteronomy 17:6 and 19:15?

 

[Cameron143]

Acts 8:12-24 Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.

How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit;

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body. (Acts 2:4, 33; 10:44-46; 19:6)

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel - God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different, the sign comes from the inside out when God takes up residence in one's body.

Is it your contention that anyone who has never spoken in tongues is not saved?

 

[timemeddler]

At any rate, prophecy resulted from the Spirit baptism but was not a sign such as tongues, because of these facts: (1) Tongues preceded prophecy, so tongues was the initial sign. (2) No other account of Spirit baptism mentions prophecy, so it is not a uniform sign. (3) Tongues is readily identifiable as a supernatural, miraculous sign while prophecy is not, especially with respect to a nonbelieving observer." Excerpt "New Birth-Bernard"

by preceding prophecy, do you mean as in acts 2:4 was before the events of acts 9?

 

[Magenta]

Is it your contention that anyone who has never spoken in tongues is not saved?

Anyone who thinks that needs to read 1 Corinthians 12. The whole chapter.

Romans 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us.

1 Corinthians 7:7b ... each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

 

[Wansvic]

...I'm not sure what mathew 18:16 and corinthians 13:1 have to do with this, It's pretty direct references to the jewish policy of handling accusations, Deuteronomy 17:6 and 19:15?

God reveals His truth concerning various topics with at least 2-3 scripture references. Even the "witness" scriptures in Matthew 18:16 and 2 Corinthians 13:1 follow this rule.

My post pertained to receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in water. Both are necessary as revealed/witnessed by at least 7 examples found within scripture.

The 2+ rule reveals some people will receive the Holy Spirit first. (Acts 2:4, 9:17-18, 10:44-45) While others will have the experience after they submit to water baptism in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:41, 8:12,16,17, 19:5-6)




My initial post as a reference:
"In Acts 2, we see both sequences. 120 received the Holy Spirit prior to Peter presenting the baptism command that applies to everyone. While others obeyed Peter and were baptized in water first. We can be confident the 3000 did receive the Holy Spirit at some point because as revealed it is a promise for all those who obey. (Acts 2:39-41)

Two scriptures-same sequence:
Acts 9, 22:16 Paul received the Holy Spirit and afterward obeyed the water baptism command.
Acts 10 Cornelius and others received Holy Spirit and afterward submitted to the water baptism command.


Two scriptures-same sequence:
Acts 8 Samaritans submitted to water baptism and days later received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19 12 individuals were rebaptized in water in the name of Jesus, and afterward received the Holy Spirit."

 

[Wansvic]

That was then. However, it is not so today or even later in the apostolic churches. See Philippians 1. There is no mention of tongues.

The first chapter of Philippians has nothing to do with elements relative to the NT rebirth. Even so, to use the lack of the mention of tongues in a scripture as a defense is faulty. Clearly not all scriptures provide every detail associated with the NT rebirth; ie, belief in Jesus, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, receiving the Holy Spirit or the sign of tongues that accompanied the experience. It is only after compiling, and study of all scriptures relevant to a topic that the truth is revealed.

 

[Wansvic]

Is it your contention that anyone who has never spoken in tongues is not saved?

It's not about me, or my thoughts...

The Bible reveals tongues is the sign that a person has received the Holy Spirit. And it states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:9-11

 

[Cameron143]

It's not about me, or my thoughts...

The Bible reveals tongues is the sign that a person has received the Holy Spirit. And it states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Rom 8:9-11

Yes or no will suffice.

 

[Wansvic]

by preceding prophecy, do you mean as in acts 2:4 was before the events of acts 9?

In the Acts 19 account, the sign of tongues came first and then they prophesied. This is consistent with what happened at Pentecost. The 120 received the Holy Spirit as revealed by the initial sign of tongues. (Acts 2:4) Peter's message spoken after he was filled with the Holy Spirit is actually prophetic. (Acts 2:38)

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: (Tongues was the initial sign)
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" Acts 2:17-18

 

[Wansvic]

Anyone who thinks that needs to read 1 Corinthians 12. The whole chapter.

Romans 12:6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us.

1 Corinthians 7:7b ... each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

We are instructed to rightly divide the word of truth. Please take note of the following:

It's very important to notice in all detailed accounts of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit ALL individuals spoke in tongues. (see #1 below) This is not the case concerning the spiritual gift; only 2 or 3 are to speak in tongues and another interpret. (1 Cor. 14:27-28) All others are to remain silent and speak to themselves and God. (see #2) The accounts reveal there is distinction regarding the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

Scripture records the manifestation of tongues for different purposes:
1. The sign of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 10:44-45, 19:6)
2. Unknown tongues used in personal prayer. (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 28)
3. Spiritual gift of tongues for public messages. Not everyone will be used to operate in this gift. (1 Cor. 14:5)

 

[Magenta]

We are instructed to rightly divide the word of truth. Please take note of the following:

It's very important to notice in all detailed accounts of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit ALL individuals spoke in tongues. (see #1 below) This is not the case concerning the spiritual gift; only 2 or 3 are to speak in tongues and another interpret. (1 Cor. 14:27-28) All others are to remain silent and speak to themselves and God. (see #2) The accounts reveal there is distinction regarding the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

Scripture records the manifestation of tongues for different purposes:
1. The sign of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 10:44-45, 19:6)
2. Unknown tongues used in personal prayer. (1 Cor 14:2, 4, 28)
3. Spiritual gift of tongues for public messages. Not everyone will be used to operate in this gift. (1 Cor. 14:5)

I take it you disagree with Paul.