The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Thunderrr-mental]

 

[awelight]

I'll ask you again

Is all life in the book of life to begin with

If you answer yes or no I'll give you a biscuit

Okay I am done. You are unbelievably childish. Not to mention disrespectful, if you even understand the meaning of that word.

 

[Magenta]

I apologize up front for butting in, if you find this post unwanted. I would send you a private message but alas I am not a paying subscriber. I donate but do not subscribe.

I have some other things, related to the subject above, to share with you.

Like you, early in my life I knew about the Gospel message. I seemed to have a soft spot in my heart for Jesus Christ and knew, some how, that many things I saw in the church were either just not right or were hypocritical. Maybe, this is just one of the ways that our Lord keeps us safe until we are Regenerated. However, these were not guiding principles in my life. I was still running my life as a materialist and as if I couldn't wait to get to hell. Like many unbelievers, I tried to be a "good person" and maybe, just maybe, that would be good enough for God.

When time came to begin a true "conversion" experience, things happened very quickly. So much so, I had two burning questions: 1) What changed in my life and 2} Why now?

I knew the Bible had the answers - not a church - but the Bible. I dug in deep immediately and the Lord began to show me, within weeks, the answers I was looking for. These would be many of the great Doctrines of Faith. Only later, did I realize the need to assemble with like minded believers, couched in the Truth of God's Doctrines. Shortly after this, I came to know that the Lord had given me the gift of "teaching". How did I know this? Because I had a burning desire, to research and study God's word and share it with others. I learned to parse the Greek text because I didn't trust any translation and built a pretty good library over the years. In particular, to both sides of the Soteriological question. I studied the Scriptures because it was fun and my greatest enjoyment came from there and showing others. Only through these studies and God's revelatory grace did I begin to understand, that in order to have the proper understanding and not just knowledge, Doctrines had to be seen in both the "Eternal light" and the "Temporal light".

One of the problems, with having the gift of teaching though, is that it is easy to get frustrated with others who don't share your enthusiasm for every little detail of a Doctrinal subject. It took me years to understand that not all believers are gifted in the same way and as hard as I might, I still become frustrated. I do not mean to magnify myself. Just wanted to give you some background.

That brings me back to the two questions in my Conversion - what changed? Why Now?

The so called concept of "free will", does not answer these questions. Instead it makes Salvation a mystery and leaves one still feeling confused. Questions go unanswered. Why now and not fifteen years ago? Why do I approach the Gospel differently now? Why do the sins in my life bother me greatly now and not back then? If it is solely my choice, then why did I pick now? If I didn't really care back then, why do I care now?

Only in understanding PROPERLY - God's eternality, Sovereignty, Purpose and Execution, can one truly understand Soteriology and how it functions. On the Temporal surface, the Gospel message is simple. Repent and Believe in the resurrected Jesus Christ as the only way to salvation. Believe in the TRUTH, with all you heart, mind and soul.

But in understanding "what changed in my life and why now" - so much more must be known but once known, then the questions are answered and the mystery falls away. Confusion is replaced with assurance.

I don't know if any of this is helpful to you but I really wanted to reach out because I care about people and Love God's Saints.

Thank you for your response to me, and no, not butting in at all! I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, attended separate schools until high school (only one of my ten siblings opted for the only Catholic high school in our city), but honestly do not recall hearing the gospel message at all during all of those years. In fact, it was partially curiosity about Who Jesus was/is that prompted me to check out the neighbourhood church where the life of Jesus was being shown via the gospel of Luke over two Saturday evenings @ Passover, at the end of my marriage. My life was a pretty big mess then and I was in a lot of emotional pain at the time. I had a profound God encounter, which I walked away from thing, gee, it's too bad God let me know I was loved and forgiven in a church setting. Ha. I had been trying to escape all that organized religion stuff for years. I said fifteen, but it was sixteen years later before I became a believer, following another Divine intervention a year previously. Now the first encounter had probably gone some distance in saving my life, and I did "treasure in my heart" the knowledge that God loved and forgave me, but I had a huge problem with that God, and thought there must be something else, and I set out trying to discover what that was. Fifteen years later when God once again revealed Himself to me was not so warm and fuzzy. In fact, I was stricken with the fear of God, and other things happened which absolutely terrified me. I rarely tell the details of those things because they are so other worldly. Though I still could not believe in the Biblical God, soon after I met someone who told me Who Jesus was in a way I could understand and accept, and I started going to church... and it was during that time, while attending the Alpha Course, that I realized I finally needed no more convincing of the Truth of God's Word. I too had a burning desire to research and study God's word and share it with others. I attended multiple churches and services and fellowship meetings every week in those days... but I never learned Greek. Kudos to you for doing so. I had always known there was something behind all we could see, and credited God with many things before I actually came to believe in Him and put my faith in His plan for humanity via the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. Coming to that place of truly believing was a major turning point in my life and really turned my whole world upside down... in a good way!

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Okay I am done. You are unbelievably childish. Not to mention disrespectful, if you even understand the meaning of that word.

Hmm you said your up foe meaningful discussion

A simple yes or no would have sufficed.

Not an attack

I found a new version to this song, what do you think

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

If we do not consider harmonizing the scriptures, we will not be able to interpret them, by rightly dividing the word of God.

And every religious paradigm "Harmonizes" then to say whatever they want.

The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, will not, and indeed, can not, have faith in the things of the Spirit. Only those that have been born again spiritually, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can have faith in spiritual things. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22)

And Romans 10:17 tells us where FAITH comes from.

 

[awelight]

Thank you for your response to me, and no, not butting in at all! I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, attended separate schools until high school (only one of my ten siblings opted for the only Catholic high school in our city), but honestly do not recall hearing the gospel message at all during all of those years. In fact, it was partially curiosity about Who Jesus was/is that prompted me to check out the neighbourhood church where the life of Jesus was being shown via the gospel of Luke over two Saturday evenings @ Passover, at the end of my marriage. My life was a pretty big mess then and I was in a lot of emotional pain at the time. I had a profound God encounter, which I walked away from thing, gee, it's too bad God let me know I was loved and forgiven in a church setting. Ha. I had been trying to escape all that organized religion stuff for years. I said fifteen, but it was sixteen years later before I became a believer, following another Divine intervention a year previously. Now the first encounter had probably gone some distance in saving my life, and I did "treasure in my heart" the knowledge that God loved and forgave me, but I had a huge problem with that God, and thought there must be something else, and I set out trying to discover what that was. Fifteen years later when God once again revealed Himself to me was not so warm and fuzzy. In fact, I was stricken with the fear of God, and other things happened which absolutely terrified me. I rarely tell the details of those things because they are so other worldly. Though I still could not believe in the Biblical God, soon after I met someone who told me Who Jesus was in a way I could understand and accept, and I started going to church... and it was during that time, while attending the Alpha Course, that I realized I finally needed no more convincing of the Truth of God's Word. I too had a burning desire to research and study God's word and share it with others. I attended multiple churches and services and fellowship meetings every week in those days... but I never learned Greek. Kudos to you for doing so. I had always known there was something behind all we could see, and credited God with many things before I actually came to believe in Him and put my faith in His plan for humanity via the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. Coming to that place of truly believing was a major turning point in my life and really turned my whole world upside down... in a good way!

Thank you for your response and sharing with me.

It is so wonderful coming to the understanding that our dear Lord and His and our Father are in control of all things. This Truth and the assurance it brings washes over me everyday. Those who do not see His Sovereignty over everything in our lives - rob themselves of such peace and assurance. Blessed be the name of our God.

When the Lord called my wife of 44 years home... I did not ask why. By that time in my life I knew why. He was in control and she had served His purpose. For we are called to serve Him - not ourselves and we serve each other for as long as it pleases Him. Each in his/her own way as the Spirit has gifted us. I miss my wife but rejoice that her suffering here on earth has ended.

I wish more would come to understand that Election and Predestination do not cause anyone to not be saved. We are quite capable of that without any ones help. So too, God does not predestine anyone to hell - we have only ourselves to blame for that. Rather, Election and Predestination as in God's Plan for Salvation, is His Glory in Mercy and Compassion.

Only one Soteriological question remains for me, (There maybe others): Why did God determine to show mercy and compassion upon me? I deserved it not. I deserved eternal punishment. Even today, nothing in me (That is my flesh), deserves any mercy from God. Perhaps in our eternal home, at the feet of our Lord, we may come to understand this better.

 

[Niki7]

Wow. How are these people allowed on a Christian Forum?

Quite a few of us are wondering the same thing

 

[OLDMANBORNAGAIN]

Quite a few of us are wondering the same thing

@Niki7 : You're a CLASSIC!!

 

[Genez]

Yes applying reasoning to your own understanding is one thing.

not placing yourself in the position whom the lord is speaking to is another

And placing yourself in the man authority is another

And not placing your self in only whom the lord is speaking to is another, as he's also speaking the same thing to whom is speaking it

But how many people have you sent to hell this last month, I believe the count is quite high isn't it.

Soooooooooo

Show scripture who had faith in the old testament

When you discover what faith really is you will stop asking such a question....

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

When you discover what faith really is you will stop asking such a question....

I Discovered That watching was a good way to observe faith

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Psalms 142:2-3 King James Version (KJV)

I poured out my complaint before him; I shewed before him my trouble. When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Or ..give your troubles to God because he cares about you

 

[Burn1986]

Yes, but all is well brother. Rest assured I’m not a Calvinist.

well the op was not really about Calvinism...people have introduced it, but that was not the op

the op was about the idea that there were 2 classes of Christian

one being the 'elect', meaning you were chosen to be saved before being born
and
two the other being those who were not elect but yet could 'choose' to be saved

there are quite a few threads on Calvinism so no need to go there....but try to hold anyone to the actual op is like herding cats

there have been claims and false accustions about the op, saying it was started to gossip and so on. none of that is true and the op itself is plain enough with no ulterior motives

for the record, I certainly do not hold to the Bible saying there are 2 classes of believers or 2 ways to be saved

Got it

 

[Genez]

Quite a few of us are wondering the same thing

Several years ago I was in a forum that we later found out was owned by an atheist....
Of all things, it was called "The Bible Discussion Forum."

We also found out it heralded from China.
It tolerated lots of things not normally seen as acceptable in Christian forums.
Threads with important topics got side tracked all the time by trolls who were left alone. Very little got accomplished.

Then an odd thing happened...
One day, in spite of it all. A Bible Doctrine was able to be expounded upon and done clearly.
It was about untangling the enigma of the mystery of the Trinity.
No one could refute it or try to enter in doubt.

Next thing was saw.... out of nowhere.. The forum shut down.....

When this sort of thing happens consistently?
It makes me (and others) wonder what is going on.
For, he is clearly a disrupter and divider...

I am not sure what the real problem is.
But, I have learned not to assume everything is as it should be.

For now? Maybe this can work.
If anyone wants to start a thread to expound on a topic?
It would have to be agreed upon before hand by by all who choose to join in. To put him on Ignore.

Maybe then we can get to the heart of a matter for once.

Not sure it would work. But, it may be worth a try.

grace and peace ...............

 

[MrScottxX]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

From a clear reading of Scriptures, we can see that every person regardless of their background has the freedom to repent and believe in the good news of Jesus Christ or to reject him and face the consequences. Jesus Christ told Nicodemus a Jewish teacher from Israel that unless a person is Born-Again they could not enter the Kingdom of God. (John 3:3) Paul says he is not ashamed of the Gospel because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone that believes, first to the jew and then to the gentile. (Romans 1:16) The gospel was first sent and preached to the jews and then to the gentiles but we all must come through the same way, THROUGH CHRIST.

 

[Genez]

I Discovered That watching was a good way to observe faith

Imitating it externally is acting and making one superficial and shallow.

When the Spirit in a regenerate soul causes it to come from within?
By means of having an accurate and solid grasp on a sound doctrine?
Its found a home to live in.

Many here are not faking it.

Actors fake it....
Actors have a false sense of security because they believe everyone else is acting too.

Hebrews 4:12-13​

​

For the word of God is alive and powerful. Sharper than any double-edged sword, ​

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the ​

thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s ​

sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we ​

must give account.​

Genuine Spirit filled Christians do not treat the Word of God as its a script to act with.

For the word of God is alive and powerful.

They will find themselves living it, and with power that comes from God...

The ones acing stick out like sore thumb while being unaware that they are missing out on something very special and real.

The Bible calls them wolves in sheep's clothing. Not a very nice place to find oneself...
Just the same. They don't care..

......

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Hearing and believing is not the cause of eternal salvation=deliverance, but it is the cause, of those who have already been promised of an inheritance of heaven ((Heb 9:15), to be delivered=saved, as they sojourn here on earth, when they come unto a knowledge of the truth (Rom 10:1-3).

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
13 “In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Unless I'm mistaken follower of Shiloh means a follower of tranquil peace does it not

Do you even remember the Sabbath, Shabbat, at all.

Shiloh, is an Old Testament name for Messiah.

 

[Genez]

Prayer matters. Prayer can cause things to happen that maybe would not have happened unless someone prayed. God responds to our prayers, yes?

In regards to praying for someone's salvation specifically?

If we are being Spirit led?

Its not God so much responding to our prayers in such matters.
But, rather. Its us in the power of the Spirit who are responding to God as we pray.

Why?

For its God's way of letting us to know what is to come to pass in His plan for our lives.

Yet, He wants that we are to pray as if we are the one requesting and asking.

This is the kind of prayer I refer to...

​

That is why I tell you, as to whatever you pray and make request for, ​

if you believe that you have received it it shall be yours." Mark 11:24​

​

God wants us to be one with Him in His plan by finding ourselves able to be believing when we pray.
We are not to try forcing our believing.
Grace will lead us into dancing with knowing it will come to pass.




grace and peace ...........

 

[John146]

For its God's way of letting us to know what is to come to pass in His plan for our lives.

scripture example p,ease