The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

[Niki7]

Is this the same school of thought that includes a first earth age in the determination? I had searched using those key search terms and the engine retrieved a website authored by a husband-and-wife ministry team. I didn't save it but only regret not tagging it because it might've helped your inquiry here. I even tried to 'refind' I must've left out a certain search term I had used previously. However, wiki brought up Arnold Murray, " Arnold Murray taught a version of pre-adamism, suggesting that "those who served God are predestined to salvation, while those who served Satan are cursed with free will and the opportunity to choose God or Satan in this lifetime."[3] "

I don't know. This thread evolved out of another wherein someone said that the elect are chosen by God and have no choice in salvation and the rest of us poor beggars are free to choose. When I asked for proof scriptures, I was given a mashup of unrealted verses that supposedly indicated that belief.

If you do re-find that site, I would be interested to take a look.

Thanks for your input...there are some very strange beliefs out there and they keep popping up.

 

[Niki7]

The two classes are: Those who belong to God and His Christ and those who belong to the Devil or if you prefer: Those who are saved and those who are not. Another way to look at these two distinct groups is: Those who are Regenerated and those who are still Unregenerate.

Your question asks: Can both be saved? I will get back to that in a moment. First, let's clear up the other part of your question. Elect Christians having no choice and Non-Elect Christians having a choice. This is a bizarre notion for both groups. If one is Non-Elect... and therefore, Non-Predestinated by God, then their choice would be to remain in their sins because this agrees with their fallen nature. If one is Elect... and Predestinated by God, then their choice will be to Repent and Believe because God has changed their nature.

So then: Can both be saved? No. God must act before the individual can act out of a new nature. This is the difference between Elect and Non-Elect.

It has been my experience, over nearly 40 years as a believer, that the problem many have in understanding God's Plan for Salvation, is either in their misunderstanding of the "Fallenness" of mankind or in misunderstanding whom God really is or both.

Well, not really asking if 'both' can be saved. The concept, apparently, is that one has no choice and the other does have a choice. Frankly I had not come across that particular variation (and I have been around). I agree it to be a bizarre notion and actually kind of incredulous that can be understood from scripture. It's just not there.

I do not lean either Calvinist or Arminian and I don't we all (believing humans on this planet) have it all figured out. The Bible could not be more succinct on how to be saved though, so as Romans states, no excuse.

Thanks....I just wanted to toss this out there because it takes the debate over 'elect' or not in a whole other direction, as though someone was trying to reconcile the word elect, did not think they were but had accepted Christ.

 

[Aaron56]

Calvin was a man of his time. In his time the Scientific Revolution had its beginnings, with an impetus to find precise answers to all things. Out of the influence of this era, Calvin's dichotomies sprang forth, seeming to provide concise, this or that, answers to spiritual questions. It appealed to his readers and to the religious population who wanted to appear to leverage higher-level scientific reasoning in their faith akin to their non-religious, scientific, counterparts.

In lieu of coffee shops, Beyoncé songs, and ripped jeans, that is how the church "stayed relevant" in the 1500's, in the age of science (and later) reasoning.

 

[Niki7]

ummm....not sure why you posted the above? ^^^^^^ this is not at all about Calvin and really do not want that disucssion

just sayin'

 

[homwardbound]

Well maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I am asking with referral to saved people....believers.

I'm really not referring to the Israelites or the sacrifical system ordained by God and not asking about reformed or non- reformed beliefs, but I am wondering about this concept of elect Christians and non elect Christians, both being saved, but the first set having no choice and the 2nd set having a choice.

I hope that is clearer. But thanks for the responses for so far.

God's desire is for no one to be lost, and gives free choice and has chosen all to be saved, not revealed until the risen Son and Pentecost with Paul as an orator to the Gentiles, Peter also
All are elected to be saved by God not one forced. God does not force anyone to have to get saved it is a choice between God and you the person
Is what I see as truth thank you

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I believe in election based on free will.

Predestination is this.

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

we see a few things in this one passage.

1. They are called according to his purpose
2. He knew them before hand (knew who they were)
3. They were predestined to be conformed to his image (salvation)
4. This occurs through justification - (we are justified by faith)

We see it again in Ephesians

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we see the following

1. We were chosen before the foundation of the world
2. We were predestined to be adopted as Gods sons and daughters
3. Through redemption, we are made acceptable to God
4. We have an eternal inheritance again being predestined
5. This predestination comes by trusting Christ, and through this God gets the glory
6. Free will is still in view. as we hear. we believe, then we trust. AFTER this, we are sealed with the spirit. which assures our predestination to be conformed to his image and to be without blame in him.

This is neither an arminian view (they reject eternal security) or a calvinist view (they reject free will)

 

[Niki7]

God's desire is for no one to be lost, and gives free choice and has chosen all to be saved, not revealed until the risen Son and Pentecost with Paul as an orator to the Gentiles, Peter also
All are elected to be saved by God not one forced. God does not force anyone to have to get saved it is a choice between God and you the person
Is what I see as truth thank you

not sure what you mean by 'God has chosen all to be saved'?

 

[Niki7]

I believe in election based on free will.

Predestination is this.

Romans 8: 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

we see a few things in this one passage.

1. They are called according to his purpose
2. He knew them before hand (knew who they were)
3. They were predestined to be conformed to his image (salvation)
4. This occurs through justification - (we are justified by faith)

We see it again in Ephesians

4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.


13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Here we see the following

1. We were chosen before the foundation of the world
2. We were predestined to be adopted as Gods sons and daughters
3. Through redemption, we are made acceptable to God
4. We have an eternal inheritance again being predestined
5. This predestination comes by trusting Christ, and through this God gets the glory
6. Free will is still in view. as we hear. we believe, then we trust. AFTER this, we are sealed with the spirit. which assures our predestination to be conformed to his image and to be without blame in him.

This is neither an arminian view (they reject eternal security) or a calvinist view (they reject free will)

Thank you for that thoughtful and scripture based reply. Puts me in mind of:

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

God's desire is for no one to be lost, and gives free choice and has chosen all to be saved, not revealed until the risen Son and Pentecost with Paul as an orator to the Gentiles, Peter also
All are elected to be saved by God not one forced. God does not force anyone to have to get saved it is a choice between God and you the person
Is what I see as truth thank you

he gives a free seed to everyone 🙂

 

[Aaron56]

ummm....not sure why you posted the above? ^^^^^^ this is not at all about Calvin and really do not want that disucssion

just sayin'

Although he didn't start the conversation, election was made popular by Calvin. "Unconditional election" is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world.

If we understand the root of something we can understand why it flourishes (or flourished).

 

[Slimsumo]

Well maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I am asking with referral to saved people....believers.

I'm really not referring to the Israelites or the sacrifical system ordained by God and not asking about reformed or non- reformed beliefs, but I am wondering about this concept of elect Christians and non elect Christians, both being saved, but the first set having no choice and the 2nd set having a choice.

I hope that is clearer. But thanks for the responses for so far.

Maybe this is gotten from "Many are called, few are chosen"?

 

[Niki7]

Maybe this is gotten from "Many are called, few are chosen"?

Interesting thought, but no. It's about salvation and some people saying that some are elected and others have free choice

That concept is not in scripture

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Although he didn't start the conversation, election was made popular by Calvin. "Unconditional election" is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world.

If we understand the root of something we can understand why it flourishes (or flourished).

Calvin stated in his ideas of election everyone is divinely sown a seed from God with maybe one in a hundred will flourish, which means it's a good seed for everyone

But yet every Calvinist I've spoke to here haven't acknowledged that.

One even saying he will sow a poisonous seed in people ..

It's a Funny thing really, the stubbormess of some people 🙂

 

[Niki7]

Calvin stated in his ideas of election everyone is divinely sown a seed from God with maybe one in a hundred will flourish, which means it's a good seed for everyone

But yet every Calvinist I've spoke to here haven't acknowledged that.

One even saying he will sow a poisonous seed in people ..

It's a Funny thing really, the stubbormess of some people 🙂

This thread is not about Calvinism. Never was. It would be kind of you to take that conversation to another thread. It is also not about seeds or the BeeGees.

You seem to be deliberately trying to change the topic and that is really not a respectful thing to do.

Please stop.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

This thread is not about Calvinism. Never was. It would be kind of you to take that conversation to another thread. It is also not about seeds or the BeeGees.

You seem to be deliberately trying to change the topic and that is really not a respectful thing to do.

Please stop.

oh I guess calvinists don't think there elect anymore.

As for free choice.

Well how do you you know your free choose 🙂

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Although he didn't start the conversation, election was made popular by Calvin. "Unconditional election" is a Calvinist doctrine relating to predestination that describes the actions and motives of God prior to his creation of the world.

If we understand the root of something we can understand why it flourishes (or flourished).

Well apparently @Niki7 since when do threads about election not invite ideas about fake Calvinists.

And may I ask are you even concerned that there be genuine Calvinist out there who don't believe in fake Calvinist views.

As you only seem to see the fake ones

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.

It looks like your not free to choose here

But I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.

 

[Niki7]

Well apparently @Niki7 since when do threads about election not invite ideas about fake Calvinists.

And may I ask are you even concerned that there be genuine Calvinist out there who don't believe in fake Calvinist views.

As you only seem to see the fake ones

Really, why are you being that way? I don't follow Calvin. I follow Jesus. Calvin never saved anyone but Jesus saves all who come to Him to have their sins forgiven.

I am going to put you on ignore because it seems all you want is to twist what others say and ruin the thread. Do you enjoy doing that?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Really, why are you being that way? I don't follow Calvin. I follow Jesus. Calvin never saved anyone but Jesus saves all who come to Him to have their sins forgiven.

I am going to put you on ignore because it seems all you want is to twist what others say and ruin the thread. Do you enjoy doing that?

Yes it's generally what most ignorant people do 🙂

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes it's generally what most ignorant people do 🙂

what? Try to ruin threads?