Predestination is misunderstood...

[obertarti]

wow.... what an imagination you have. we are not writing fiction. This is not creative writing class.

But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world

In Greek from above in plural

Reintegration is baptism spiritual into Him

Nothing needed invention but careful studies of scripture

Do not listen circulating doctrines but only scripture -then you will see what is nedeed

King James Bible
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him


Exist in Him and not in Him

Why needed pleroma of periods -ages-aionos

 

[studier]

Have you ever met a genuine believer that didn't care?

Did Adam know his Creator and decide to reject Him?

Does the one with the "reprobate mind" know God but determine not to glorify Him as God nor be thankful to Him, and know God but not value to have God in experiential knowledge, and know the righteous judgment of God and His death penalty yet sin anyway and agree with others who do the same?

Do the second and third examples of the soils believe and decide there are other things more important than God?

 

[Genez]

It’s easy to “overthink” the conversion from death to life.

One says, “I understand what you say, but I don’t believe it.”

Another says, “ I understand what your’e saying, and I believe it to be true.”

Any conversation can be rationalized, and over thought away.

Any conversation.

How complex and encrypted was this one?


Genesis 2:16-17

And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; ​

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat ​

from it you will certainly die.”​

Satan found a way.

When man became fallen? We transformed into his image. (we became Satan's seed by proxy)

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, ​

and between your seed and her seed. ​

He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Gen 3:15​

So, men now wishing to avoid the truth can find a way by the inborn instincts of the fallen nature.......

Like father like son.


grace and peace ...........

 

[Cameron143]

Any conversation can be rationalized, and over thought away.

Any conversation.

How complex and encrypted was this one?


Genesis 2:16-17

And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; ​

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat ​

from it you will certainly die.”​

Satan found a way.

When man became fallen? We transformed into his image. (we became Satan's seed by proxy)

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, ​

and between your seed and her seed. ​

He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Gen 3:15​

So, men now wishing to avoid the truth can find a way by the inborn instincts of the fallen nature.......

Like father like son.


grace and peace ...........

Where do you find that sin caused man to be transformed into the image of Satan?

 

[sawdust]

gotquestions.org explains what I mean by "mental assent" much better than I am able to communicate:

To give intellectual assent is to agree with something on a factual basis. Faith involves intellectual assent, and intellectual assent is an important part of faith, but faith is much more than knowing facts.​

​

...​

​

Intellectual assent is a necessary part of saving faith. No one can be saved who denies the basic facts about Jesus recorded in the New Testament. But saving faith goes beyond acceptance of the facts to embrace the significance of those facts and entrust one’s life to them.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/intellectual-assent.html​

.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I agree with the above statement.

This is why I separate our believing from having faith. I do not see them as being the same thing. Our believing is agreeing with the facts or truth of God's word but it is the word, when making it's home in our thinking, that produces faith. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17) We do not produce (saving) faith of ourselves.

This is why the content of what we believe is important and I try to be as accurate as possible because if we get the facts wrong, then the word (truth) is not making a home within us. If we are not having faith produced in us, we are not pleasing God (Heb.11:6) and we cannot be righteous. (Rom.1:17) Faith is the certainty of God's word (Heb.11:1) and is what we rest in.

We walk by faith and only those who have faith can truly understand how faith is not blind.

 

[Sipsey]

Did Adam know his Creator and decide to reject Him?

Does the one with the "reprobate mind" know God but determine not to glorify Him as God nor be thankful to Him, and know God but not value to have God in experiential knowledge, and know the righteous judgment of God and His death penalty yet sin anyway and agree with others who do the same?

Do the second and third examples of the soils believe and decide there are other things more important than God?

It’s called sin. One does not even know they are sinners, unless they know something of God. We all make excuses, just like in the garden. It is only through an honest admission that we have sinned against God alone, that we can be forgiven, and fellowship restored. If there is no sin, there is no need for forgiveness, or a Savior.

 

[Genez]

Where do you find that sin caused man to be transformed into the image of Satan?

Transformed in how we think.
God's Word must transform us away from the nature we inherited since Adam's fall.


I wonder why you have not known this by now...

Apparently you have no idea how pleasing Satan can make himself to appeal to the doctrinally naïve.
That he can be very pleasing to a human being. The image of a red suit and pitchfork is no more accurate than
showing a long haired soft Jesus....

Here is an example of Peter doing something that many young believers would have seen as being very noble in intent.

​

Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.​

​

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go ​

to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief ​

priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on ​

the third day be raised to life.​

​

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ​

“Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” Matthew 16:20-22​

Many nice people would say that Peter was being honorable and noble in his intent.
That, even they would have said the same thing if they were in his sandals..


But what happened?

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! ​

You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in ​

mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”​

We really need to pray to find one of the few good pastors to teach us how our good feelings are not from God.
For His ways are not our ways.

................

 

[Genez]

But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world

In Greek from above in plural

Reintegration is baptism spiritual into Him

Nothing needed invention but careful studies of scripture

Do not listen circulating doctrines but only scripture -then you will see what is nedeed

King James Bible
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him


Exist in Him and not in Him

Why needed pleroma of periods -ages-aionos

Intellectual escapism...

 

[Cameron143]

Transformed in how we think.
God's Word must transform us away from the nature we inherited since Adam's fall.


I wonder why you have not known this by now...

Apparently you have no idea how pleasing Satan can make himself to appeal to the doctrinally naïve.
That he can be very pleasing to a human being. The image of a red suit and pitchfork is no more accurate than
showing a long haired soft Jesus....

Here is an example of Peter doing something that many young believers would have seen as being very noble in intent.

​

Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.​

​

From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go ​

to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief ​

priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on ​

the third day be raised to life.​

​

Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. ​

“Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” Matthew 16:20-22​

Many nice people would say that Peter was being honorable and noble in his intent.
That, even they would have said the same thing if they were in his sandals..


But what happened?

Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! ​

You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in ​

mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”​

We really need to pray to find one of the few good pastors to teach us how our good feelings are not from God.
For His ways are not our ways.

................

You never addressed my question, but nice pontificating.
While the image of God was certainly marred in man as a result of sin, where does scripture say we are in the image of Satan?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So, if Luke had not written "finger of God" but the "Spirit of God" as did Matthew, then we would still know to go back to Exodus 8? Again, there are assumptions being made.

did you look up the term finger of God? The term is used 4 times in Scripture ... the first usage is the record in Exodus 8.

The next two refer to the two tables of stone on which God wrote (Ex 31:18, Deut 9:10). Deut 9:11 refers to them as the tables of the covenant.

The last is the record in Luke.

So, the reasoning is that Satan is acting against himself by having the Pharisees' sons cast out demons. And then there's the reasoning that Satan is just deploying a deceptive strategy by having the Pharisees' sons (and charlatans in our time) cast out demons to make it look like they have the power of God. And then there's the the reasoning that ...

Here is what Scripture tells us:

Matthew 12:22-23 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

The term son of David is a Messianic term. The Lord Jesus Christ caused the blind to see and the dumb to speak ... which fulfilled OT prophecy (Is 35:5, 6).

When the pharisees heard the people calling Jesus "son of David", they immediately put a stop to it by claiming Jesus had cast out devils by beelzebub ... and Jesus immediately put them in their place.

The blasphemy of the pharisees was they attributed God’s work to satan, thereby giving satan glory ... glory that belongs only to God.

I do agree that satan uses any means at hand in order "to make it look like [he has] the power of God". His goal is to "be like the most high God" (Is 14:14) ... that and keep folks from believing in the True God.

The article reference I supplied from the NET Bible I can only find on subscription sites I don't currently subscribe to. It's seems clear the article reasons the sons in Luke 11 are Jesus' disciples - Jews and sons of Israel - as one of the participants in the above Exegesis link mentions.

I do not believe the record supports the claim that Jesus was referring to His disciples. The record reveals Jesus responded to the pharisees who claimed Jesus cast out demons through beelzebub.

claim of pharisees:

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it [when they heard the people saying "is not this the son of David"], they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

response of Jesus:

Matthew 12:27 And if I [Jesus] by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your [Greek = hymōn = "your" referring to the pharisees] children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

If Jesus had meant His disciples, He would have said "my [Greek = mou = my] disciples"

BTW, I'm not trying to take your favored view away from you. I am however revealing that there are different views which seem to deserve some consideration.

my "favored view" is the Word of God. we're all here to learn from each other. I learn a lot from the folks who communicate here and I look forward to continuing to learn. I appreciate that you shared the links.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

They are skimming the surface,,,, No depth.

right ...

Mental assent is seeing the facts not for yourself. But imagining seeing the facts as someone else who does accept them would,
and without the personal connection to the facts as the one whom God granted faith. It amounts to being analytical detachment.

I think when the Lord Jesus Christ tells the lord lord folks "I never knew you", they will understand where they deviated ...

What makes one a believer by grace is revealing that one wishes what the facts were are true, and keeps seeking ways to find that they are true. That is what the Bereans did after hearing Paul's teachings. (Acts 17:11) In their case, they searched the Scriptures daily in the desire to prove Paul's words to be true... They were not searching the Scriptures to see if Paul was pulling a fast one. They liked what Paul had said and wanted very much to prove his words true. That is why Paul said that the Bereans were the most noble -open minded - people. Not like some we find in forums online that slam their minds shut when something knocks on the door of their rigid acceptance of dogma that contradicts God and His Word.

yeah ... gotta check what we're hearing with what's written.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

if what we hear lines up with Scripture, hold tight.

if what we hear does not line up, let it go.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Does the one with the "reprobate mind" know God but determine not to glorify Him as God nor be thankful to Him, and know God but not value to have God in experiential knowledge, and know the righteous judgment of God and His death penalty yet sin anyway and agree with others who do the same?

Romans 1 reveals what occurs in those who end up with reprobate mind:

Rom 1:16-17 — the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe and in it [the gospel of Christ] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

Rom 1:18 — the wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. (The words hold the truth in unrighteousness mean that the truth is restrained or suppressed in unrighteouosness.)

Rom 1:19-21 — God reveals Himself in creation and people turn from Him and are not thankful. They become vain in their imaginations and the foolish heart becomes darkened.

Rom 1:22-24 — because the heart is darkened, they change the glory of God into an image (idolatry).

They are given up to uncleannesss through the lusts of their own hearts.

Rom 1:24-26 — because they are given up to uncleanness, they dishonor their bodies. The truth of God is changed into a lie and creation is worshipped more than the Creator.

They are given up to vile affections and the natural is changed into that which is against nature.

Rom 1:27-28 — because they are given up to vile affections, they burn in their lust and work that which is unseemly which results in receiving the adequate compensation for their error.

They are given over to a reprobate mind.

Rom 1:29-32 — actions of those with a reprobate mind. They know the judgment of God and continue in their foolishness and also have pleasure in those who do the same.

People are not born with a reprobate mind. They are allowed to step further and further from God and at certain points, God releases them to their foolishness. it is a downward spiral from their foolish heart was darkened (Rom 1:21) to God gave them over to a reprobate mind (Rom 1:28). It does not happen overnight. It is a progression over time.

At any point, a person can turn to God. God forgives those who are truly repentant. We have this lifetime to turn to God. Look at the malefactor who hung on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23:39-43).
.

 

[sawdust]

You never addressed my question, but nice pontificating.
While the image of God was certainly marred in man as a result of sin, where does scripture say we are in the image of Satan?

We are in Satan's image when we think like him. The scriptural example given was the one of Peter in Matt.16:20-22.

I don't know how you missed the answer.

 

[Cameron143]

We are in Satan's image when we think like him. The scriptural example given was the one of Peter in Matt.16:20-22.

I don't know how you missed the answer.

I saw the reference. That verse doesn't say Peter was made in the image of Satan.

For someone who extols exacting language you seem to only call for it of certain people.

Do you have a verse that says man was transformed into the image of Satan?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

When man became fallen? We transformed into his image. (we became Satan's seed by proxy)

I do not believe mankind "became satan's seed by proxy" ... I believe mankind is in bondage to sin (Rom 6:17) and death (Heb 2:15).

When Adam sinned, the authority God gave to Adam (Gen 1:26-28) was handed over to satan (Luke 4:6). satan became the ruler of this world (John 12:31) ... satan is the prince of the power of the air (Eph 2:2).

and there are some who become children of the devil (1 John 3:10), but mankind is not born a child of satan.

Once a person is born again of incorruptible seed, we are freed from satan's hold ... we belong to the Lord Jesus Christ. He bought us and paid for us with His blood.

satan knows the born again one no longer belongs to him, but he still walks about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. we have to humble ourselves before God's mighty hand ... be sober and vigilant, resist him steadfast in the faith (1 Peter 5:6-11).

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, ​

and between your seed and her seed. ​

He will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.” Gen 3:15​

"her seed" is the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, men now wishing to avoid the truth can find a way by the inborn instincts of the fallen nature.......

I believe God reaches out to each and every person during the course of his or her life. God makes the first move ... and He does so by the foolishness of preaching.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God saves those who believe. Those who believe will receive the blessing God promises.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) will suffer the consequence of having suppressed.
.

 

[sawdust]

I saw the reference. That verse doesn't say Peter was made in the image of Satan.

For someone who extols exacting language you seem to only call for it of certain people.

Do you have a verse that says man was transformed into the image of Satan?

You asked "Where do you find that sin caused man to be transformed into the image of Satan?" and he explained by saying "transformed in how we think". The more we think like Satan, the more we look like him. Looking like someone is what an image is.

Do you honestly need all the back story of how sin mars our thinking and deceives us to make us look like Satan?

There is a difference between using accurate language in the effort to explain a principle and wanting an exact quote. You seem to want an exact scriptural quote of where it says we are made in Satan's image. You won't get that but you did get an accurate understanding of how we are made in Satan's image. Not everything is made instantaneously, some things are made over time.

I not only prefer exacting language, I also prefer speaking with people who can think beyond their noses.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Ok, I see what you're saying. I agree with the above statement.

sometimes communication by keyboard takes some effort to effectively get the point across ... gotta stay at it until we're sure the other guy (or gal) "gets" what we're trying to say.

This is why I separate our believing from having faith. I do not see them as being the same thing. Our believing is agreeing with the facts or truth of God's word but it is the word, when making it's home in our thinking, that produces faith. Faith comes from the word (Rom.10:17) We do not produce (saving) faith of ourselves.

I see it a little differently. I believe all have faith and it is faith in operation which results in believing.

We do not question God having given mankind intellect with which to think ... but we hesitate when it comes God having given mankind faith with which to believe.

intellect in operation results in thinking ... and we can think "good" things as well as "bad" things.

faith in operation results in believing ... and we can believe truth as well as lies.

When we believe a lie the result can be disastrous for us.

When we believe truth the result is beneficial to us.

This is why the content of what we believe is important and I try to be as accurate as possible because if we get the facts wrong, then the word (truth) is not making a home within us. If we are not having faith produced in us, we are not pleasing God (Heb.11:6) and we cannot be righteous. (Rom.1:17) Faith is the certainty of God's word (Heb.11:1) and is what we rest in.

I believe that when we believe truth, God works within to bring increase ... God strengthens our faith.

If we do not believe truth, we remain weak in faith.

We walk by faith and only those who have faith can truly understand how faith is not blind.

yes ... however, there are times when we just have to take that step, trusting that God's promise holds true and then we see.

John 20:27-29 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

and think of Noah who had never seen rain, yet still built the ark (by faith Noah – Heb 11:7).
.

 

[Cameron143]

You asked "Where do you find that sin caused man to be transformed into the image of Satan?" and he explained by saying "transformed in how we think". The more we think like Satan, the more we look like him. Looking like someone is what an image is.

Do you honestly need all the back story of how sin mars our thinking and deceives us to make us look like Satan?

There is a difference between using accurate language in the effort to explain a principle and wanting an exact quote. You seem to want an exact scriptural quote of where it says we are made in Satan's image. You won't get that but you did get an accurate understanding of how we are made in Satan's image. Not everything is made instantaneously, some things are made over time.

I not only prefer exacting language, I also prefer speaking with people who can think beyond their noses.

I see. So you are as rude as you are wrong. Those verses only show our thinking can be transformed. It doesn't say we partake of the image of Satan. It actually means something to be made in the image of God that while it was marred in man by sin but not removed.

At any rate, as discussions with you rarely are edifying, I probably will refrain from replying to your posts in the future.

 

[Genez]

You never addressed my question, but nice pontificating.
While the image of God was certainly marred in man as a result of sin, where does scripture say we are in the image of Satan?

I did already mention it as far as I recall....


Genesis 3:15

And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”


Jesus cited that factor before his enemies....

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires.
He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth
in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Its in that sense that men became the offspring of Satan.....



Ephesians 2:1-2

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live
when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,
the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.


..............

 

[Genez]

We are in Satan's image when we think like him. The scriptural example given was the one of Peter in Matt.16:20-22.

I don't know how you missed the answer.

You might get used to it after a while....

They can not hear what moves them out of their comfort zone...

Matthew 16:22-23 is not good for a casual reader....