Can the nonelect ever be born-again? (2 Kings 22:27) With the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I already showed you several times, but you obviously refused to admit what you said after I exposed it as false doctrine.

You obviously don't have a clue as to how many billions drowned, but you can't speak on behalf of the historical experts. They don't make claims based on their emotional state.

Unless said experts are Biblical experts I don't care what they say. No one knows, the Bible doesn't say.

And I showed you several times what the Word has to say in direct words, taken straight from the Bible. If you consider that false doctrine, then I can see where your problem is. I'm gonna listen to what the Word says over both you and Calvin.[/QUOTE]

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

That's an unbiblical false doctrine, you should start believing in what God said and put aside your private views

It's in scripture

It says the word of God is a seed to.

Well the word is also the light.

And a seed is so his light.

So the scripture says the light is planted in everyman as a seed.

Then in scripture it says for some people along the way they experience Joy in the heart by this seed before it falls by the way side.

Therefore when you look at someone with Common sense like Jean Calvin, you can see why he said everyman is divinely sown a seed in him but maybe only one in one hundred flourish.

I mean it's not rocket science.

If Jean Calvin recognises every person is elected to be saved, why can't his followers

 

[Niki7]

Yes I had forgot my history sorry.

The King James used the Geneva bike as reference,

Yep I'm not sure why they call it the king James bible.

It's called the kjv.

But I'm wondering whether the successor of Jean Calvin who translated the Geneva bible was a true calvinist which lead to the king James version

Well KJ stand for King James I bet you knew that.

I'm not leaning Calvinist or Arminian really.

 

[maxamir]

Not sure how this changes the fact that God so loved THE WORLD.

Yes we are a fragrance, God did not send his son to die for nothing, we are his result and his reward

the correct word you said was "we" and that is who Christ died for, the we who believe throughout the whole world and not only the nation of Israel as Nicodemus thought and had to be corrected to understand.

 

[maxamir]

Again does not prove your point. In the same passage of John Jesus said this

John 6:
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You see, Just like in John 3, There are two people

the one who believes,

and the one who does not believe.

that is what seperates the saved from the lost. That is Gods will.

in those verses it is clearly stated those who were given to Him by the Father were saved.

Joh 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Those that were given to Christ are His sheep who are given ears to hear His voice and come to Him.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

These are those Christ prayed for and not the goats.

Joh 17:8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

 

[maxamir]

Actually, no I did not miss anything


You missed his point altogether.

I agree with Jesus, being born again is not something we see or feel. We do not know where it comes from.

But right after this, when Nicodemus asked how it can be, Jesus told him.

You don't just cot a passage out of context.

Those who look and believe are born again.

Those who do not, are lost.

But those who are born again through faith do not know where it came from..

those who look and believe are indeed born again because that is the fruit of being born again by grace and not a cause of it.

If a person can not see or feel as you say, then how can a person believe? The answer is that it is a gift of God to do so because it is impossible for man to do anything spiritually because he is dead spiritually and it is up to God to make him alive, which He accomplished for His people in the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[maxamir]

Who said I had the power to chose God? There you go again assuming, because your listening to what you are taught and what people are actually saying..


How wicked am I?

All have sinned and fall short. All includes me

Every moment I wake up and I am not in hell I am blessed. because that's where I deserve to be.

The tax collector did nto chose God. He chose to cry out for Gods mercy, because he understood his situation.

I did that 40 some years ago.. You should stop assuming you know what anyone did or did not do.




There you go again pulling verses out of context.

John 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


1. The right to become Gods child comes through receiving him
2. I can not be saved through bloodline (like the jew believed)
3. I can not will myself saved (through the flesh)
4. And I can;t will my child to be saved, and they are saved.

But I must receive him.

You should watch how you cut and pic and chose verses out of context. and ask yourself why you do it.,

you continually make your receiving of Christ the condition of your salvation without even realising it

1. The right to become Gods child comes through receiving him

when the reality is that they who are saved are chosen by God to receive Him only because He first chose them.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Unless you submit to this truth that salvation belongs to and is of God according to His will, not yours, you have something in which to boast before God and are not yet humbled.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

therefore it is not of anything a person does which, includes receiving, but His choosing and granting of grace that saves a person

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

 

[maxamir]

1. To be absent from the body is to be present with the lord.
2. John said I write these things so you may KNOW you have eternal life, and continue to believe in his name.
3. I have been chastened from God numerous times. I know I am saved.

Nothing you say or do will change what God has shown me in my lifetime

experiences do not save people or a head knowledge of certain biblical truths. It is Christ who saves by killing the persons selfish will in giving them a new heart and spirit to gratefully obey Him unto suffering and even death.

 

[maxamir]

oh boy.


Let me share a better example..

Two people are out in the ocean after a shipwreck.

A savior is sent to save them,

1 person does what the savior says, and just allows him to save him

the other fights and refuses to let the savior do the job, and eventually rejects him.

the person that is saved can not boast of saving himself. because he trusted the savior.

He will boast in the savior.

Again I re-iterate, neither of the people in your example can boast. I reject your notion the one guy could boast..

I can not boast of saving myself. i did nothing!! Christ did it all.

nothing you say can change that

your illustration clearly states that is is only because the person allows themself to be saved that they are saved. You do not yet understand grace as long as you think it comes because of anything a person does.

The person in the water can not see the rescue ship or even hear the calls to be rescued because they are already drowned!

 

[maxamir]

God has answered those prayers many times.

Try it,. You may like it

I can have absolute confidence in my prayers because I have been granted faith to know that the answer of those prayers comes from God who decreed them and is not dependent upon who I am or anything I do but is the instrument which God uses for His people to learn love and bring to reality those things He has decreed to come to pass in time.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

the correct word you said was "we" and that is who Christ died for, the we who believe throughout the whole world and not only the nation of Israel as Nicodemus thought and had to be corrected to understand.

Again.

John said he died for the world SO THAT whoever (we) believes.

He did not say he died for us so that we..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

in those verses it is clearly stated those who were given to Him by the Father were saved.

No argument

Joh 6:39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Those that were given to Christ are His sheep who are given ears to hear His voice and come to Him.

Again no argument

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

These are those Christ prayed for and not the goats.

Joh 17:8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
Joh 17:9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

View attachment 263312

Again, you did not complete the whole passage. you did want most people do and cut only the parts out that support your case. and ignored the parts that do not.

The argument has nothing to do with who will be saved, we agree.

The argument is who did Jesus die for, and what was the will of God.

The will of God is whoever sees and believes.

You want to remove believe from the equation. That's where the error comes from.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Well KJ stand for King James I bet you knew that.

I'm not leaning Calvinist or Arminian really.

Thats good because I have only talked to fake Calvinist here,.I've yet to talk to a real one

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

those who look and believe are indeed born again because that is the fruit of being born again by grace and not a cause of it.

No one said it was.

But God will not give it to you unless you look and believe, thats the will of God.

If a person can not see or feel as you say, then how can a person believe? The answer is that it is a gift of God to do so because it is impossible for man to do anything spiritually because he is dead spiritually and it is up to God to make him alive, which He accomplished for His people in the life, death and resurrection of Christ.

But they can look and see. otherwise no one could be saved.

Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,



Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Eph 2:6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Yes. Sin was forgiven, that is called justification.. That is done through faith. Period.

You can not be made alive while still under the penalty of sin. Unless that sin is redeemed or justified.

We are justified by faith.

You can not remove faith from the equation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

you continually make your receiving of Christ the condition of your salvation without even realising it

1. The right to become Gods child comes through receiving him

Your argument is with scripture

when the reality is that they who are saved are chosen by God to receive Him only because He first chose them.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

There you go picking and choosng again

Joh 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
Joh 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Who did he give the right? To THOSE (as many) Who received him.

You can't keep cutting or ignoring plain words of scripture.

You also need to learn to interpret correctly.

I did not will God and he saved me based on that will. It was his will that if I saw and believed, i would be saved.

Unless you submit to this truth that salvation belongs to and is of God according to His will, not yours, you have something in which to boast before God and are not yet humbled.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You,

2Th_2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

therefore it is not of anything a person does which, includes receiving, but His choosing and granting of grace that saves a person

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

lol.

You talk about me humbling myself while you hold yourself up an a pedistool of how great you are that God chose you..

You need to look inside my friend.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

experiences do not save people or a head knowledge of certain biblical truths. It is Christ who saves by killing the persons selfish will in giving them a new heart and spirit to gratefully obey Him unto suffering and even death.

God changed my heart 40 years ago.

When will you allow him to change yours?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

your illustration clearly states that is is only because the person allows themself to be saved that they are saved. You do not yet understand grace as long as you think it comes because of anything a person does.

The person in the water can not see the rescue ship or even hear the calls to be rescued because they are already drowned!

lol.

Nope.

thats where you are in error.

They are liviung breathing souls.. They are not so dead they can do nothing.

Again, Stop puffing yourself up. and stop making God the creator of evil..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I can have absolute confidence in my prayers because I have been granted faith to know that the answer of those prayers comes from God who decreed them and is not dependent upon who I am or anything I do but is the instrument which God uses for His people to learn love and bring to reality those things He has decreed to come to pass in time.

Same here

Without the cross. I could not have any faith..

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Same here

Without the cross. I could not have any faith..

your arguing with a fake Calvinist

 

[maxamir]

Again.

John said he died for the world SO THAT whoever (we) believes.

He did not say he died for us so that we..

If you think the word world means every single person without exception then there is no Hell as all must therefore be saved and Christ lied when He spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven to warn people of going there.

Instead, I believe you think that Christ died for every single person not to save anyone at all but to make it possible for them to save themselves if only they would believe.

The sad truth is that the demons believe and they are not saved and it is impossible for man to believe unless he is first born again by grace which came through Christ because without the Holy Spirit, the Gospel is foolishness to spiritually dead men.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.