Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[selahsays]

It's a tough doctrine for many because they tend to overthink it, instead of just going by what scripture says. So many want to reason their way as to why predestination cannot be true. But is there any scripture that says that God decreed or predestined that all men be saved? Also, we really do have to understand what went on in the Garden after the Fall. Genesis 3 sets the rock-solid foundation for soteriological truth throughout all scripture. Right after the Fall God determined that there would be two kinds of people on this earth: The Woman's seed and the Serpent's seed. When Paul talks about the Potter making two lumps of clay out of one (Rom 9:21), I have to think he was alluding to Genesis 3. God indeed made two lumps from Adam (not forgetting that Eve proceeded from Adam!).. One lump God gave to the devil. The other lump he gave to the promised SEED ("all that the Father gives me will come to me...") who would come through the Woman and one day crush the serpent's head. There is not even one scintilla of a hint in the bible that God ever intended to save the entire human race. God cannot possibly be unjust for giving sinners what they deserve; nor can He be unjust for giving the elect his grace and forgiveness that they don't deserve, since His Beloved paid their sin debt in full. Grace and Mercy were not given freely at the expense of Justice. Perhaps I'll elaborate more later....



You continue to impress, sister. I would say that is the main point that is being emphasized in that metaphor. Whereas in the spiritual death metaphor inability is being stressed. Don't forget....going back to the Garden again...what did Adam and Eve fail to do that caused their sin? They both didn't trust God. They failed to rely upon him, to depend on their Creator. Anyhow...I do plan on eventually unpacking this metaphor. There are many components to it.

Predestination IS true. It applies only to the Elect. It predestines them to salvation.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

 

[Cameron143]

I can't be responsible for how people think or emote. While the TULIP acronym, admittedly, isn't perfect, it's still a convenient way to remember and express the Five Doctrines of Grace. TULIP is certainly "scripturally driven". It just isn't popular in much of the Church. But then again...Jesus wasn't very popular either during his First Advent...and he still isn't in the world.

You are your brothers keeper. You are supposed to do nothing through strife or vain glory, but in lowliness of mind esteeming others better than yourself.

 

[Mem]

I like to think I'm a dandelion, Taraxacum, floating my puff upon the gales of hot wind that blow about ever so oft in the tulip fields of CC.

God called Jonah to rescue the Ninevites from destruction, and even though Jonah hated them he did as God bade him to do and sulked about it later. Did God hate the Ninevites before He offered them repentance?

 

[Rufus]

Predestination IS true. It applies only to the Elect. It predestines them to salvation.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (KJV)

But it necessarily predestines others to condemnation. Since God predestined in eternity many unto salvation, it stands to reason that he did not predestine many others to that salvation...and therefore left them to their own sinful devices in this life for which they will suffer eternal punishment. And this is what rubs many people wrong. To their way of thinking, it's just not fair! So, unsanctified minds have come up with an "ingenuous" workaround. Unfortunately, it is a perversion of the doctrine of Foreknowledge. The omniscient God in eternity [past] gazed into his creation of Time via his cosmic crystal ball to learn (acquire knowledge of) who would play naughty and nice with his Gospel and the ones who freely chose to play nice by believing it, he predestined to save, thereby essentially choosing them in return. (You know...the "one good turn deserves another" adage? Or "God helps those who help themselves" [first]?) They love this perversion of truth because it let's God off the Responsibility hook. Ultimately, everyone's eternal destiny lies in their own hands.

 

[Rufus]

I like to think I'm a dandelion, Taraxacum, floating my puff upon the gales of hot wind that blow about ever so oft in the tulip fields of CC.

Hah...you have the makings of a poet, sir. Keep working at it.

God called Jonah to rescue the Ninevites from destruction, and even though Jonah hated them he did as God bade him to do and sulked about it later. Did God hate the Ninevites before He offered them repentance?

Why would God hate any of his elect? Are not the Ninevites a great example of

Rom 8:29-30
29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified?
NIV

Jesus even said that the "Ninevites will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah" (Lk 11:30). And, of course, repentance and faith are gifts from God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Ninevites were Gentiles and God was showing Jonah a glimpse into the future by have a Jew preach to the Gentiles and them believing in the Jewish God. Similar to what Peter and Paul did.

 

[Rufus]

You are your brothers keeper. You are supposed to do nothing through strife or vain glory, but in lowliness of mind esteeming others better than yourself.

I don't bring strife or vain glory to this forum. Only the truth I have received by God's grace. Don't you know that the entire world is offended by Jesus and his gospel? Watering down truth, or diluting it or sugar-coating it or even worse yet, perhaps, presenting a half truth and passing it off as the whole truth is not going to change people's minds. The Church at large here in the West, at least, is already in its death sleep mode in case you haven't noticed.

 

[Cameron143]

I don't bring strife or vain glory to this forum. Only the truth I have received by God's grace. Don't you know that the entire world is offended by Jesus and his gospel? Watering down truth, or diluting it or sugar-coating it or even worse yet, perhaps, presenting a half truth and passing it off as the whole truth is not going to change people's minds. The Church at large here in the West, at least, is already in its death sleep mode in case you haven't noticed.

Post #5047.

 

[Mem]

Hah...you have the makings of a poet, sir. Keep working at it.

There's no work involved, it's a gift.

 

[MerSee]

There's no work involved, it's a gift.

Everybody works.

 

[selahsays]

But it necessarily predestines others to condemnation. Since God predestined in eternity many unto salvation, it stands to reason that he did not predestine many others to that salvation...and therefore left them to their own sinful devices in this life for which they will suffer eternal punishment. And this is what rubs many people wrong. To their way of thinking, it's just not fair! So, unsanctified minds have come up with an "ingenuous" workaround. Unfortunately, it is a perversion of the doctrine of Foreknowledge. The omniscient God in eternity [past] gazed into his creation of Time via his cosmic crystal ball to learn (acquire knowledge of) who would play naughty and nice with his Gospel and the ones who freely chose to play nice by believing it, he predestined to save, thereby essentially choosing them in return. (You know...the "one good turn deserves another" adage? Or "God helps those who help themselves" [first]?) They love this perversion of truth because it let's God off the Responsibility hook. Ultimately, everyone's eternal destiny lies in their own hands.

. . . . .
I don’t believe God predestined anyone for eternal damnation. And yet, before the foundation of the world, our Father did elect some for eternal salvation because of His foreknowledge of them then, not foreknowledge of what they would do now in this age.

Consider:
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:5-13 (KJV)
…..
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20
Both now and in the Millennium, the Elect have a duty to perform on behalf of God. As in Ezekiel 44:23, they are to:
"teach His people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.“
And In Matthew 28:19-20:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you….”

. . . . .
(Many, unfortunately not all, will be saved in these latter days.)

—selah

 

[Mem]

Everybody works.

Many may have the will to work but they stumble in darkness, and no one can work when night comes.

 

[selahsays]

@Rufus
I have a few questions.

If God predestined some people to damnation, why then will God use His Elect to speak through them when the Antichrist is here at the 6th trump? And what would God’s purpose be for sending the Two Witnesses right before Jesus returns at the 7th trump? And why is there a Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium if God has already predestined some for damnation?

Here are the Elect being used by God:
"And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

- Mark 13:10-11

Here are the 2 Witnesses:
"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

- Revelation 11:3
________
It doesn't sound to me like God has condemned anyone to damnation.

 

[Rufus]

@Rufus
I have a few questions.

If God predestined some people to damnation, why then will God use His Elect to speak through them when the Antichrist is here at the 6th trump? And what would God’s purpose be for sending the Two Witnesses right before Jesus returns at the 7th trump? And why is there a Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennium if God has already predestined some for damnation?

Here are the Elect being used by God:
"And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations. "But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

- Mark 13:10-11

Here are the 2 Witnesses:
"And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

- Revelation 11:3
________
It doesn't sound to me like God has condemned anyone to damnation.

He uses his elect in the NC age the same way he used his prophets with Israel in the OC economy. It has pleased God to use his Church, through which his Light shines, to preach the gospel to a lost and dark world. For whoever God predestined in eternity to save will indeed come to saving faith in temporal reality. We the Church are merely his instruments for evangelism. After all, none of us know who God's elect are before they come to faith, do we?

The Great White Throne judgment must take place because all the non-elect must be judged for their sins. Would it be just of God to condemn all the non-elect without telling them why they are condemned? The Day of Judgment will be all mankind's "day in court" in which they get a fair hearing.

The big question you will have to research and answer for yourself is this: Did God ever intend to save each and every person in the world? For me the answer is very clear beginning with Genesis 3.

 

[Rufus]

. . . . .
I don’t believe God predestined anyone for eternal damnation. And yet, before the foundation of the world, our Father did elect some for eternal salvation because of His foreknowledge of them then, not foreknowledge of what they would do now in this age.

Consider:
For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. - 2 Peter 3:5-13 (KJV)
…..
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. 2 Corinthians 5:20
Both now and in the Millennium, the Elect have a duty to perform on behalf of God. As in Ezekiel 44:23, they are to:
"teach His people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.“
And In Matthew 28:19-20:
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you….”

. . . . .
(Many, unfortunately not all, will be saved in these latter days.)

—selah

You're misunderstanding 2 Pet 3. God is patient toward the elect, not the world. You have to pay close attention to the pronouns and the terms of endearment that Peter uses in this passage. Who are the people he's addressing in v. 11, v.12, v.13? And who are the "dear friends" in vv. 8, 14 and 17? And in v. 9, who is God patient towards -- who are the 'you" in this verse: the world or the Jewish believers to whom Peter was writing? If Paul is saying in v. 9 that God doesn't want anyone in the entire world to perish, then why didn't Peter say that God is patient with the entire world? It seems to me that God would be patient toward those he doesn't want to perish. Peter was writing to believers who were in danger of falling away due to all the false teaching they were receiving. In fact, Peter exhorts his brothers strongly in 1:10 to be all the more eager to make "your calling and election sure". Hence, why God wants them to come to repentance (3:9).

 

[NOV25]

Romans 9:18-24
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

"But that's not fair..."

😏

Get it through your heads. Creation is not man centered, it's God centered.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Calvinism is a plague on the gospel and the devil's plan to confuse both saved and unsaved

For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit, I Peter 3:18

See that? ONLY Christ is righteous as He was when He died for us...when He took our place as the object of the wrath of God...and He did so as the final sacrifice for ALL time. The unrighteous are all without Christ but who become the righteousness of God in Christ when a person accepts Christ and acknowledges that He alone can save

16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. II Corinthians 5:21

True genuine calvin wisdom direct from John Calvin is not a plague. 😊

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Romans 9:18-24
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

"But that's not fair..."

😏

Get it through your heads. Creation is not man centered, it's God centered.

Paul is explaining the Jews.

9:4-5
4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises.
5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

11:7-8
7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
8 as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

 

[NOV25]

Paul is explaining the Jews.

False but it's ok, that's what most synergists say.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

You remind me of that watcher guy that got banned a while back 🤔

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

False but thats what most synergists say.

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

You remind me of that watcher guy that got banned a while back 🤔

He's is explaining the Jews and how the Gentiles are being called.