Did Jesus Have an Advantage over Pre-Fall Adam During the Incarnation?

[Charlie_2024]

Again you err in thinking the worst. Have you never been led of the Spirit? Have you never lived, yet not you, but Christ is living in you? Have you never found strength to persevere when your flesh was too weak? Have you never struggled in a sin and known deliverance? Have you never gone through a difficult situation and found grace in your time of need?
If you ever do experience such power, you will desire to walk in it continually.

Yes I have experienced all of those, but none of that applies to Jesus. Why would Jesus need to be led by the Holy Spirit when He is God. That's makes Him equal to the Holy spirit and they are of the same will and in perfect harmony at all times.

Jesus was fully God so He had no need of the Holy Spirit as we do, so you need to rethink all those points as none of them are true.

 

[PaulThomson]

What did I write that makes you think I believe He would take it away from us????

"The reason why it isn't any easier having the Holy Spirit to helps us obey and keep from sin is because God hasn't taken away our free will. The Bible says that we can grieve the Holy Spirit, showing that it is possible to resist His work in us. This shows us that the Holy Spirit (and God the Father and the Lord Jesus) will not ever force us to do anything. We must be willing to submit to God in order for Him to work in us.

The Lord Jesus showed that it is possible to fully submit to the Holy Spirit which should be a great encouragement to us."

I thought you were talking about only our present pre-glory state, and suggesting in glory our free will is not going to be a problem, because God would take that away.. I guess I misunderstood you.

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes I have experienced all of those, but none of that applies to Jesus. Why would Jesus need to be led by the Holy Spirit when He is God. That's makes Him equal to the Holy spirit and they are of the same will and in perfect harmony at all times.

Jesus was fully God so He had no need of the Holy Spirit as we do, so you need to rethink all those points as none of them are true.

Your presuppositions about what a Person who is God can and cannot do are blinding you to the possibility that the Son, as God, could empty Himself so that He did need to depend on trusting and obeying the Father and Spirit to avoid deception into sin and to do miracles.

 

[Charlie_2024]

You have repeatedly proven yourself incapable of observing data from any other perspective than your own. I am wasting my time describing a perspective to you that differs from your own, as all you do is attack the differences, and pigeonhole them according to where they most comfortably fit within your caricatured menu of heresies. You have not been able as yet to adopt the other persons axioms and look at data through that different lens to see what conclusions and possibilities, whether new or old, that lens affords.

Only those who don't poses the truth, and are still seeking the truth need to look at all the various possibilities and views, while they seek. But those of us who have already found the truth, don't need to chase every wind of doctrine. Gods said those people are forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of saving faith.

God said, there's nothing new under the sun. All things remain the same as they have always been, but most people reject what God has said and they seek new things all the time. They always fall prey to Charlatans, selling new age mysticism.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes I have experienced all of those, but none of that applies to Jesus. Why would Jesus need to be led by the Holy Spirit when He is God. That's makes Him equal to the Holy spirit and they are of the same will and in perfect harmony at all times.

Jesus was fully God so He had no need of the Holy Spirit as we do, so you need to rethink all those points as none of them are true.

I never said those things were true of Him. I was merely demonstrating the power of the Spirit. We experience these things having only that power in part. Jesus was given the Spirit without measure.

 

[PaulThomson]

Only those who don't poses the truth, and are still seeking the truth need to look at all the various possibilities and views, while they seek. But those of us who have already found the truth, don't need to chase every wind of doctrine. Gods said those people are forever learning but never coming to the knowledge of saving faith.

God said, there's nothing new under the sun. All things remain the same as they have always been, but most people reject what God has said and they seek new things all the time. They always fall prey to Charlatans, selling new age mysticism.

Pre-K children have begun to learn that other perspective exist. We send them to school to learn other perspectives. By comparing how things appear from varied perspectives, wise evaluation comes. You can only SEE from your own perspective. Even your study of other perspectives is from your own perspective. You cnnot let go of your own perspective to understand what others see. You are reasoning like someone who is spiritually pre-K.

 

[Charlie_2024]

Are you kidding me? I gave you verse after verse showing how Jesus did nothing of Himself, hence His reliance on others ie. God the Father and Spirit. I have shown how all authority was given Him. God does not need to be given authority in anything. I directed you to post #85 which gave many scriptures showing Christ's submission to a higher power and authority.

You are the one giving personal opinion. You make a claim Jesus switched between being God and being man simply because he performed miracles. Have you not read of Moses or the Prophets? They performed many miracles, so one does not need to be God to perform miracles.

OK, so you don't believe that Jesus is the almighty Jehovah God as He claims to be. If you don't believe what Jesus said then you're an unbeliever. So you make up your own truth as you go.

You don't believe that Jesus is God and you believe Jesus appealed to some mystical higher power like Morlock. You deny the fac that Jesus is the one God. He is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. You can try to separate them all you like but it is blasphemy to do so

 

[Charlie_2024]

Your presuppositions about what a Person who is God can and cannot do are blinding you to the possibility that the Son, as God, could empty Himself so that He did need to depend on trusting and obeying the Father and Spirit to avoid deception into sin and to do miracles.

Jesus never had any issues with trusting God, there was no possibility that He would sin against Himself. Hem knew what His mission was and did it exactly according to the plan.

He was always God during His incarnation, but He didn't use His power to cheat The Father and disconnect Himself from pain or sorrow or any of the things that us mortal men have to deal with. He just showed of His power to the crowd to prove that He is God.

He didn't need to depend on God for anything because He is God, so it's ludicrous to suggest that He had to depend on obedience to avoid deception and sin. Jesus created everything that exists and He has full control of every atom in the universe, there's is nothing that can challenge Him or cause Him to fear failure or any other silly thing you fear.

 

[Charlie_2024]

I never said those things were true of Him. I was merely demonstrating the power of the Spirit. We experience these things having only that power in part. Jesus was given the Spirit without measure.

I don't believe Jesus was given anything, since He crated all things that exist. He was fully God when He was born and throughout His earthly incarnation. He never ceased to be full God for a moment. He is God and He always was God and He always will be God. The Godhead is One, they are in constant union and their will is in constant harmony. None of the tree Person ever ceased to be who they are to take on some other identity. They're not like people with an identity crisis

 

[Charlie_2024]

Pre-K children have begun to learn that other perspective exist. We send them to school to learn other perspectives. By comparing how things appear from varied perspectives, wise evaluation comes. You can only SEE from your own perspective. Even your study of other perspectives is from your own perspective. You cnnot let go of your own perspective to understand what others see. You are reasoning like someone who is spiritually pre-K.

I don't have a private perspective or opinion. I'm led by the Holy Spirit, He dictates everything and I don't get to chose or decide anything. I am a slave of Christ, He s the master and I ma the servant. The servant has no right to question anything or use his own rational or wisdom or understanding.

A slave has no autonomy or free will, a slave just trusts and obeys and shuts his mouth. He never ever questions or seeks or argues anything

 

[cv5]

I don't believe Jesus was given anything, since He crated all things that exist. He was fully God when He was born and throughout His earthly incarnation. He never ceased to be full God for a moment. He is God and He always was God and He always will be God. The Godhead is One, they are in constant union and their will is in constant harmony. None of the tree Person ever ceased to be who they are to take on some other identity. They're not like people with an identity crisis

Amen to that brother.
Jesus is the "I Am", the infinite eternal God.
The term "I Am" implies that He (and the Godhead) exist always in the present. There is no past or future for God, as He is outside of time, and is the creator of time.

On the other hand all created beings exist in the past or future.......never in the present.

Furthermore it is clear in John 17 that as far as Jesus Christ is concerned, the crucifixion and resurrection has already occurred. Meaning that victory was assured despite any supposed efforts to thwart it. And Jesus was constantly informing the apostles that he was going to be crucified and subsequently resurrected, It was a done deal.

 

[cv5]

I have discussed this a couple of times with others, never coming to any consensus. I thought I would open the discussion here. Some say because He is God, He did have an advantage, others have been unsure.

What say you?

How much of an advantage does infinity and timelessness have over any of the finite creation begotten at a point in time?

An infinite amount. With an infinite number of degrees of freedom to act upon.

Whatever sum or number that you can come up with, divided by infinity, you get nothingness.

Just to let you know: Jesus Christ at His coming destroys Satan (the most powerful and wisest created being in existence) effortlessly with the breath of this mouth. The same way that Samson tore apart the young roaring lion.

 

[sawdust]

OK, so you don't believe that Jesus is the almighty Jehovah God as He claims to be. If you don't believe what Jesus said then you're an unbeliever. So you make up your own truth as you go.

You don't believe that Jesus is God and you believe Jesus appealed to some mystical higher power like Morlock. You deny the fac that Jesus is the one God. He is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. You can try to separate them all you like but it is blasphemy to do so

You can't seem to differentiate between being and acting. Jesus is being God always. He stopped acting as God during the period we know as the Incarnation. Your post of #92 even quoted my post where I said Jesus is God. Another poster tried to make the claim I was saying I didn't believe Jesus to be God. You are both wrong. I stake my eternity on Jesus being God.

If I don't believe what Jesus said????

Jesus said:

John 5:19
Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

I'll let others decide who is and who is not believing what Jesus said about Himself in His role as a man.

 

[cv5]

He stopped acting as God during the period we know as the Incarnation.

Absolutely nonsense.

Jesus was literally in command of literally everything at all times. Jesus was absolutely fully in control of every aspect of His crucifixion. His resurrection. His own birth for pity sake. His fulfillment of every single prophecy spoken about Him, and exactly on time. The entire content of the Old Testament all of which speaks about Him.

Jesus was CONSTANTLY issuing commands to people. Issuing commands to the natural realm. Issuing commands to fish. Issuing commands to animals. Issuing commands to demons. Issuing commands to Satan himself.

........the works.

 

[sawdust]

He didn't need to depend on God for anything because He is God, so it's ludicrous to suggest that He had to depend on obedience to avoid deception and sin.

Does God need to learn obedience? Jesus did.

Hebrews 5:8
Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered


You keep seeing Jesus in His glorified state and thinking that is how he lived during the Incarnation. He was like us in every way except without sin. That means he had to rely on God just as we do. Jesus was pioneering a new way of living, in the filling of the Spirit and truth (the word is truth). He lived the perfect human life for this age. If He cheated at any time during the Incarnation by speaking or doing anything by His own authority and power ie. by acting as God? We could not ever come to the full stature of His life because we are not God. The life He lives in us is His perfect human life, it is to this life we strive and persevere so that in the Resurrection we too will be glorified with Him.

There is so much to learn. We cannot remain in the elementary doctrines. We need to push on to more understanding and maturity.

 

[sawdust]

Absolutely nonsense.

Jesus was literally in command of literally everything at all times. Jesus was absolutely fully in control of every aspect of His crucifixion. His resurrection. His own birth for pity sake. His fulfillment of every single prophecy spoken about Him, and exactly on time. The entire content of the Old Testament all of which speaks about Him.

Jesus was CONSTANTLY issuing commands to people. Issuing commands to the natural realm. Issuing commands to fish. Issuing commands to animals. Issuing commands to demons. Issuing commands to Satan himself.

........the works.

Yes He was but on whose orders? Even the Gentile centurion recognised Jesus was under orders. Why is it, those who profess to know Him, cannot recognise it?

 

[sawdust]

How much of an advantage does infinity and timelessness have over any of the finite creation begotten at a point in time?

An infinite amount. With an infinite number of degrees of freedom to act upon.

Whatever sum or number that you can come up with, divided by infinity, you get nothingness.

Just to let you know: Jesus Christ at His coming destroys Satan (the most powerful and wisest created being in existence) effortlessly with the breath of this mouth. The same way that Samson tore apart the young roaring lion.

He will be coming in glory when He destroys Satan. We are discussing the Incarnation only.

 

[posthuman]

I suggest you read through the thread.

i suggest God is never not God

He humbled Himself, setting aside His glory to take the form of a servant.

the help of man is worthless, says the scripture - therefore Who can save? if He is only man, there is no salvation.

 

[cv5]

He will be coming in glory when He destroys Satan. We are discussing the Incarnation only.

Did you forget? His Glory was ALWAYS there......but it was "veiled" under flesh. Which veil was removed at the Transfiguration for the sake of the Apostles.

Just like the Ark of The Covenant was veiled in the days of the Tabernacle in the wilderness.
(Yes the Ark itself is an intentional type of Christ.)
Just like the Holy of Holy's was veiled behind the curtain.

 

[PaulThomson]

OK, so you don't believe that Jesus is the almighty Jehovah God as He claims to be. If you don't believe what Jesus said then you're an unbeliever. So you make up your own truth as you go.

You don't believe that Jesus is God and you believe Jesus appealed to some mystical higher power like Morlock. You deny the fac that Jesus is the one God. He is One with the Father and the Holy Spirit. You can try to separate them all you like but it is blasphemy to do so

A Person who is the Almighty Jehovah God, does not have to remain Almighty, to be the same Divine Person, if there are two other Persons who are also the Almighty Jehovah God. When He incarnated, Jesus gave up the glory He had with the Father before the world began; and after His resurrection He received that glory back. Jesus did not need to be Almighty to be the sinless second Adam, as long as He obeyed the Father, who did Almighty works through Him by the Holy Spirit. It's very simple, to understand, if you can let go of your so-called orthodox pre-programming and read what the Bible actually says with unbiased eyes.