All Of Israel, Or Just A Remnant?

[Pilgrimshope]

The reason I asked the question the way I did was because we know whatever God wills inevitably comes to pass. So if verses such as you posted means that God actually willed the salvation of all humanity, it would actually come to pass. God does His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth, and none stay His hand or say unto Him what doest Thou...Daniel 4:35.
I can only conclude from the verse you shared that the phrase...God isn't willing that any should perish...to mean that God would rather people repent, and not that He decreed or purposed it to come to pass.

“The reason I asked the question the way I did was because we know whatever God wills inevitably comes to pass.”

Yes he knows the end from before he began , him knowing if I’ll be saved in the end , is not my perspective it is all knowing Gods perspective .

My perspective is that of a man that or the creation believes in Jesus my lord

What I’m saying brother is the bi le os what God said to all mankind . He’s told us how the end will be how to be saved how to be damned how to serve his Will how to serve satans Will , the outcome of both paths ect

When God created the world he have the whole earth , dominion over all the earth that God made to mankind . What that means is this can now happen and it’s not God doing it read who he’s blaming for all the wockedness and who’s suffering wrath for it

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-7, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God created and willed this for mankind when he gave it to them

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that was the outcome of mans dominion following transgression

God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”

He o ot created man and blessed them and gave them the earth for a home we did the rest lol and God laments the work of mankind whom he created for good yet there they are and still today and always look at us brother it’s not Gods Will when we do evil and be damned he’s been telling us not to since Eden haha we won’t listen is the problem my daddy used to say when I didn’t listen I was a “ knot head “ lol that’s what mankind is we’re not very bright we keep rejecting zgod telling us to stop doing evil and he’ll forgive us

instead we keep Listening to the other voice saying “ ot doesn’t matter everyone sins all the time you can’t change repentance ? Pshh that’s a work it’s fine to sin your saved friend “

God has always said the opposite from day 1 and even in the end of revelation he’s telling us the same thing

He doesn’t choose the people that burn tbey get blotted out all thier own because they won’t repent and acknolwedge God

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Part and parcel of salvation is that preachers be sent...Romans 10:14-15.
The reason I referenced Matthew 13:10-17 at the outset was because I believe the hearing is given, and where it is given, always leads to conversion.

Part and parcel of salvation is that preachers be sent..

Amen that’s how hearing is given by the preaching

Yes brother the gospel is the key to all of it it’s why that’s why he sent out to all of us when we hear the gospel even just parts of it John 316 makes a statement that’s at the core Jesus dying and rising again another statement at the core when we hear those things we can accept them or other also often reject them

awe dont have to know every jot and tittle But we can k my believe the stuff we hear is my point I could never have known to believe the gospel unless I heard what was in it nothing ever came magically but of course all things came by prayer and reliance and requests into God for things

prayer is another good example of faith in action brother what we believe being shown on our actions

to a non believer were talking to nonone an imaginary bieng , by faith we understand were speaking reverently with almighty God who chooses to call us children and fornus to call him Father

Bit if we don’t hear those things the actual message we could never believe any of it that’s why we all have so many different opinions brother

awe e all read parts dofferent parts of the Bible and focused on those things and missed some of the other thkngs that are also there

anyways brother you’re a blessing always have been and remain as one thanks for taking time to discuss

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The Bible has much to say on this along the lines of seek and you will find, draw near to God and He will draw near to you, God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble, etc. Everyone knows that God exists, leaving man without an excuse to seek the truth of the matter. True that none seek Him... but in any earnest and sincere search for truth, more will be revealed, and God promises to reveal Himself...

“in any earnest and sincere search for truth, more will be revealed, and God promises to reveal Himself..”

that is a perfect and beautiful description of walking by faith

“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭

its a personal Invite one disciple just joined the flock another one has grown old in it each isn’t going to have the same understanding and knowledge but as we abide with Jesus as a disciple we will grow and more will be revealed as we do more sin will be revealed and more repentance brought forth before us as long as we keep walking by faith we’re going to be saved never perfected but always growing and changing

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The point, I think he is making, the natural cannot hear and believe until he has been born again being one of God's sheep John 10:26.

Then how did anyone ever get born again lol ????? We’re there already born again people that needed to be born again …. Again hahaha ?

everyone ever born is condemned that’s the only reason we need to be born again to enter the kingdom …..Peter needed to be born again because he was a natural man without the holy spirit hahaha

Im not sure the point is registering with me no one has ever been born again until they are born again through the gospel . If we had to be born again before we could believe lol we would r need to be born again or hewr about it on the gospel

“being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:23-25‬ ‭

were all natural sinners condemned …….that’s why we all need to be saved born again by the gospel

 

[maxwel]

Thanks for your support. It does make a person wonder why he is participating in a bible debate forum. For many years I had the same problem with, seemingly, contradicting scriptures. After the Holy Spirit within me revealed that the scriptures do harmonize, I was converted to a better understanding of the scriptures, which changes my life, and I love defending the doctrine that Jesus taught.

I honestly didn't read many of your views.
I just saw someone trying to silence a normal Christian who was making normal Christian statements... and that isn't what we do here.

You are free to debate, and question, and challenge people's views... it's how we test our doctrine, and it's how we learn.


Have a great weekend.
.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The point, I think he is making, the natural cannot hear and believe until he has been born again being one of God's sheep John 10:26.

Still putting the cart before the horse, and reversing what Scripture actually says. Which means that you have hardened your heart against the truth.

No unsaved person can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit was regenerates believers so that they are born again.

 

[Chaps]

I think this thought deserves some time devoted to thinking it out. If Adam's one sin brought death to all the world, by default, and Jesus' one act is greater than Adam's, then it would seem to follow that the scope of its effective can't be limited to less than that of Adam's influence upon all the world. So, if the effect is indeed limited, then how, where, or when, is it? We already know there is the running suggestion that the answer is relative to who? But should we ask what also? It seems, to me, that the answer would adequately address all these questions. Who, what, where, when, and how.

Yes, universalists like to point out this scripture as suggesting that Jesus’ act can only be “greater” than Adam‘s if the effect of Christ‘s forgiveness encompasses all those who have sinned. I do not see it this way…

I think what Paul is saying is that Adam committed one sin…. That one sin led to world into death and infinite corruption. Christ’s sacrifice can cover ALL sins throughout history. So the point is not how many are saved vs how many are tainted by sin but how much Christ’s sacrifice covers a multitude of sin when it only took one sin to lead the entire world to corruption

 

[Evmur]

Hello Takiyah! Thanks for sharing. I still don't feel like I have a solid grasp on subject. And honestly I'm not sure if I can. Somethings missing.

yo

here is one thing that may be missing. When the Lord raptures the church He aso raises up the Jews. I saw that in Daniel 12.

At that time shall arise Michael the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble such as never has been since there was a nation till that time but at that time your people shall be delivered everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awaken, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever.

This is packed with info

We can see that it at the time of the great tribulation, we can see that the Jews will be delivered from out of the great trib. We can see that they are raised from the dead, not just the righteous but the wicked too [so it is not the Rapture, though it would seem likely to be simultaneous with]

And here we may see that ALL Israel does not seem to mean every single Jew.

On the famous remnant, the apostles were the remnant, the Jewish church was [perhaps still is] the remnant. Paul identifies himself with the remnant.
The purpose of the remnant is to keep the testimony alive until the whole nation is turned back to the Lord. As at Mt Carmel through Elijah and the subsequent ministries of Elisha and King Jehu.

 

[ewq1938]

Here’s the truth about those sacrifices

“But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In the OT the sacrifices did result in forgiveness of sin as the verses declare. Eventually Giod was unhappy with Israel and those sacrifices no longer were accepted. Doesn't change that each verse was true at the time they were written.

 

[PaulThomson]

There is a remnant from national Israel, and a remnant out of every tribe, and tongue among the gentiles, Both trmnants are being gathered generation by generation. The Gentile remnant was grafted in because of the Jews taking the gospel to them, in the first century, and the Jewish remnant will be grafted back in by the Gentiles taking the gospel to the Jews in the subsequent centuries. In this way, all Israel, which is Christ's bride and comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, will be saved.

 

[Mem]

Yes, universalists like to point out this scripture as suggesting that Jesus’ act can only be “greater” than Adam‘s if the effect of Christ‘s forgiveness encompasses all those who have sinned. I do not see it this way…

I think what Paul is saying is that Adam committed one sin…. That one sin led to world into death and infinite corruption. Christ’s sacrifice can cover ALL sins throughout history. So the point is not how many are saved vs how many are tainted by sin but how much Christ’s sacrifice covers a multitude of sin when it only took one sin to lead the entire world to corruption

I can't shake the idea to start up a CACTUS doctrine because I can't convince myself that all sins have been forgiven, even though not everyone will repent of them. Of course, this suggests that repentance is factored into the conditions of salvation. So, a rough draft of my acronym might develop into something that begins with Corruption and ends with Sanctity: Common Corruption (Why?); Acceptable Forgiveness (When?); Constrained Election (Who?); Tertiary Salvation (What?); Unlimited Atonement (How?); Separate Sanctity (Where?)
... It's a work in progress.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I can't shake the idea to start up a CACTUS doctrine because I can't convince myself that all sins have been forgiven, even though not everyone will repent of them.

Since you are starting off with a false premise, just drop this idea that you have. The Bible does not say that all sins have been forgiven. What it says is that Christ has paid the penalty for all sins on the cross, so that they may be forgiven under God's terms and conditions. Repentance is necessary for the forgiveness (or remission) of sins. So is confession. So is the forgiving of others first.

 

[Mem]

Since you are starting off with a false premise, just drop this idea that you have. The Bible does not say that all sins have been forgiven. What it says is that Christ has paid the penalty for all sins on the cross, so that they may be forgiven under God's terms and conditions. Repentance is necessary for the forgiveness (or remission) of sins. So is confession. So is the forgiving of others first.

I think I covered that in "Accepting Forgiveness," since it goes without saying that if people don't accept that they have sinned (confession), then they would see no need to repent (that is, see their need and so approach God's mercy) in order to receive (that is, accept) forgiveness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Yes, only a remnant will be saved and that would be "believing Israel" -- those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. But a "remnant" out of the many Jews who will be on earth at that time will still be a large number.

As to "all Israel" God sees those who belong to the twelve tribes at all times, so "all Israel" means that every tribe will be represented in redeemed Israel. Obviously only believing Jews who have been born again are the one included. Ezekiel 48 presents all these tribes.

God does not contradict Himself, but He does expect us to rightly divide the word of truth

I agree with you that the scriptures do not contradict each other, and rightly dividing the word is only found in the remnant if Israel.

Redeemed Israel includes everyone that believes in a spiritual God, and worships him in spirit. God blinded the biggest part of Israel for their disobedient in worshiping idols, but before the last day, they will come unto a knowledge of the truth, and be delivered.

Spiritual Israel is Jacob, whom God changed his name to be no more called Jacob, but will be called Israel. Psalms 22:23, Ye that fear the LORD, praise him, all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him, and fear him, all ye seed of Israel.

Mal 3:6, For I am the LORD. I change not. Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The two gates in Matt 7 harmonize with this theory, in that, those that go into the wide gate are spiritual Israel that are blinded from a knowledge of the gospel of Christ, and are going about teaching false doctrines of an eternal deliverance by their good works, and those that go into the strait gate are the remnant of the house of Israel who have been revealed a knowledge of the gospel of Christ, that leads to an abundant, and peaceful life, without fear, as they sojourn here in earth.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I agree with you that the scriptures do not contradict each other, and rightly dividing the word is only found in the remnant if Israel.

Redeemed Israel includes everyone that believes in a spiritual God, and worships him in spirit. God blinded the biggest part of Israel for their disobedient in worshiping idols, but before the last day, they will come unto a knowledge of the truth, and be delivered.

Spiritual Israel is Jacob, whom God changed his name to be no more called Jacob, but will be called Israel. Psalms 22:23, Ye that fear the LORD, praise him, all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him, and fear him, all ye seed of Israel.

Mal 3:6, For I am the LORD. I change not. Therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The two gates in Matt 7 harmonize with this theory, in that, those that go into the wide gate are spiritual Israel that are blinded from a knowledge of the gospel of Christ, and are going about teaching false doctrines of an eternal deliverance by their good works, and those that go into the strait gate are the remnant of the house of Israel who have been revealed a knowledge of the gospel of Christ, that leads to an abundant, and peaceful life, without fear, as they sojourn here in earth.

I agree in regards to what Israel means and its nice to see someone understand Israel is just a name God gave His people. It was literal and metaphorical. We need to be part of spiritual Israel i.e. God's people grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28

I also agree we can't work our way to heaven. We are saved by grace through faith because all of us has sinned and deserve the death penalty, but through Jesus Great Sacrifice and grace He gives His saints eternal life based on the conditions set forth in scripture. Faith produces good works and while we are not saved by works, it's a reflection that one is saved and this is the result.

Rev 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Which reconciles us:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Abba did say, “My people perish for lack of knowledge.” I believe the multitude who are excluded just do not know who they are…due to the whole scattered about the earth fulfilled prophesy...in addition, no acceptance or faith in Yah and the Salvation He provides for us all helps seal their fate.

If they are "his people" they have the promise of an inheritance of heaven. They have a lack of knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and are known as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel", Perish=death=separation. their lack of knowledge separates them from their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent, in which they will do before the last day.

The remnant of the house of Israel are instructed to preach to, and pray for, the lost sheep of the house of Israel that they might be delivered (saved) from their ignorance of the gospel of Jesus Christ (Rom 10:1-3)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I agree in regards to what Israel means and its nice to see someone understand Israel is just a name God gave His people. It was literal and metaphorical. We need to be part of spiritual Israel i.e. God's people grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28

I also agree we can't work our way to heaven. We are saved by grace through faith because all of us has sinned and deserve the death penalty, but through Jesus Great Sacrifice and grace He gives His saints eternal life based on the conditions set forth in scripture. Faith produces good works and while we are not saved by works, it's a reflection that one is saved and this is the result.

Rev 14: 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Which reconciles us:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

The truth of the gospel remains a mystery to those, of his people, whom he blinded to a knowledge of the truth.

Saved=delivered, save=deliver, salvation=deliverance, according to Strong's concordance.

If a person applies all of the salvation scriptures to eternal salvation, it will tend to teach eternal salvation by their good works.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

The truth of the gospel remains a mystery to those, of his people, whom he blinded to a knowledge of the truth.

Saved=delivered, save=deliver, salvation=deliverance, according to Strong's concordance.

If a person applies all of the salvation scriptures to eternal salvation, it will tend to teach eternal salvation by their good works.

If a person teaches all they have to do for salvation is believe (which is a work) or all is saved, but can stay exactly the way they are and not have a conversion it will lead one outside the gates of heaven as scriptures states clearly. Rev 22:14-15 Heb 10:26-30 Mat 7:21-23 and goes against the plain warning of Jesus Mat 5:19-30

 

[ForestGreenCook]

If a person teaches all they have to do for salvation is believe (which is a work) or all is saved, but can stay exactly the way they are and not have a conversion it will lead one outside the gates of heaven as scriptures states clearly. Rev 22:14-15 Heb 10:26-30 Mat 7:21-23 and goes against the plain warning of Jesus Mat 5:19-30

Those lost sheep of the house of Israel, whom God has blinded to know the gospel will eventually repent. Romans 11:26, And so all Israel shall be saved, as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Concerning Matt 7:21-23, "the kingdom of heaven" is one of many names in the scriptures that have reference to Christ's bride, the church. Such as, The little flock, The kingdom of God, the church of Christ, the church in the wilderness, The church of God, and others.

The physical church discipline will not accept accept some disobedient children of God as members of the church that have the promise of an inheritance of eternal heaven.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Since you are starting off with a false premise, just drop this idea that you have. The Bible does not say that all sins have been forgiven. What it says is that Christ has paid the penalty for all sins on the cross, so that they may be forgiven under God's terms and conditions. Repentance is necessary for the forgiveness (or remission) of sins. So is confession. So is the forgiving of others first.

Eternal salvation was accomplished on the cross for all of those that Jesus's Father gave to him, and he promised that he would lose none of them John 6:37-40.