Predestination is misunderstood...

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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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That means the Tax collector had been given a new heart.
The tax collector was not given a new heart until AFTER he cried out for Gods mercy

If he would have been left in nature, then:

Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
lol

Once again, The tax collector did not promise to obey God. He admitted he could not obey God and cried out for mercy.
 
Dec 18, 2023
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Again:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
If you deprave someone your not a calvinist

If your capable of depraving someone then you are depraved

I am true calvinist ..
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
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The tax collector was not given a new heart until AFTER he cried out for Gods mercy


lol

Once again, The tax collector did not promise to obey God. He admitted he could not obey God and cried out for mercy.
Again:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
6,463
590
113
If you deprave someone your not a calvinist

If your capable of depraving someone then you are depraved

I am true calvinist ..
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
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Again:
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Once again

The tax collector did NOT submit to God

He cried out for Gods mercy..
 
Mar 7, 2024
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I never said "I can use my faith as a work". You are the one making faith into a work, an effort (Greek ergon), and contradicting scripture which clearly says faith is not a work. Please, stop lying about what people have and have not said. Please, report their words honestly.
I merely connected the dots, and found the contradiction in what you stated about faith. One the one hand you claim the faith is not a work, and I agree with that because the bibles teaches that faith is a gift from God. so you can't claim you employed your faith in order to obey the gospel message and be saved.
If Gods word is to be believed, then you never had faith but it was gifted to you without you asking for it to later use, to effect your salvation. The bible says that salvation is of the Lord, and not by anything man does lest he boast.

If you haven't freely received salvation, without adding any of your own faith or will or any other kind of effort than it was received freely and you have something to boast about.
 
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Well, my Bible says, "believe on the Lord and you will be saved", so believing Him comes before being saved. Maybe you're dyslexic and don't know it.
My bible tells me that God elected to save His children before He made the world. Maybe you reject those things God said, which don't line up with your view. This is called cherry picking the bible, to create a false doctrine.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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My bible tells me that God elected to save His children before He made the world. Maybe you reject those things God said, which don't line up with your view. This is called cherry picking the bible, to create a false doctrine.
Your right, based on foreknowledge, based on his good will.
 
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That's not what the other Calvinists/Reformed here have been saying. They say you can't believe unless you're saved.
Precisely, only the elect can choose to believe the gospel. Those God has chosen to leave in their sin are sealed for destruction, they can only chose to reject the gospel as they have no other option.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Precisely, only the elect can choose to believe the gospel. Those God has chosen to leave in their sin are sealed for destruction, they can only chose to reject the gospel as they have no other option.
which is why Your god can not be called a God of love.. A god of love would never do this
 
Dec 18, 2023
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Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
I am still true calvinist.
 
Dec 18, 2023
6,402
406
83
Men by nature are unwilling and at enmity against God, will not and cant submit to God. So if a person becomes willing, then that's indicative God has changed them, saved them and given them a new heart.

Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
warning for believers

1 Corinthians 10:1-15

New International Version



Warnings From Israel’s History
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come. 12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 13 No temptation[c] has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted[d] beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,[e] he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper
14 Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say.
 
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I'm not an Arminian and the verse says we were predestined to be holy and adopted as sons which, is what I said earlier. Not a single word about being destined to believe. God predestined believers. The doctrine only applies to believers ergo, it is not about God choosing who would believe and who would not otherwise predestination would be applied to everyone.
I can't make any sense of this, you say we were predestined to be holy and adopted as sons and all this applies to unbelievers. So now unbelievers are the predestined to be the Holy sons of God. This is beggars belief, it's not found anywhere in the bible.

My bible tells me that those predestined elect holy sons of God, are given everything required for salvation as a gift. god freely draws them to Himself, then He freely regenerates, them, then He freely gives them the gift of faith/belief, then he gives them the gift of repentance, the He gives them the free gift of sanctification, then He gives them the free gift of perseverance, then He gives them the free gift of salvation, then He gives them the free gift of transformation into the image of His Son.

You need to show me, which stage of the process of salvations wasn't predestined before the world began, and why those names in Gods book of life were written before the foundation of the world.

Which part of salvation does man chose or wok to bring about, you can't simplify it and say "I'm saved, because I choose to believe", the choice was never yours and neither was any other part of the work of salvation. It is all of God and nothing of man so we can boast about how smart we are and deny God His glory.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Didn't he call upon the name of Lord? Isn't this obedience, thus, submission?
Agree.

If we're talking about the tax collector in Luke 18:13, I think the implication is that by acknowledging his sin, and asking forgiveness of the one true God, he was engaging in an act of submission to God.

Genuine repentance is inherently an act of submission.


HOWEVER, I don't think this passage has anything to do with a Calvinism debate
.
It simply fails to clearly support either side.
Either side can claim the passage supports their view, and there is just nothing in the passage to show us what caused his repentance.... it doesn't address this issue.
I can't see that it's a relevant passage for a debate on Calvinism.... for either side.

Either side can say he repented "due to this or that"... but it simply isn't in the text.
.
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