Reformers, Presbyterians, and Early Protestants.

[kinda]

At its heart are statues to William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox.

I think all Evangelicals and Protestants can give credit to the church elders of Geneva, for their contribution of the Christian faith.

We can't forget the first reformer from Germany, Martin Luther.

What I'm hoping for is a mostly positive and informative contributions of Biblical doctrines, by early church leaders in the dark ages.

Who would you say, is the most important Reformer?

Who would you say, got it mostly right in the Biblical sense?

Who would you recommend studying first, if your not familar with most of the early church elders?

How did these elders shape Western Churches and Biblical Studies?

No, I'm not trying to have a heated debate, the intention of this thread is to bring insight of our early church leaders, and how the help shaped Biblical doctrine?

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Why put the name of John Calvin on the tulip doctrine when he died 60 years or so before it was released.

John Calvin was noted as saying don't question Gods authority.

But tulip doctrine questions every bit of God's authority

So why do something your church father never wanted, or put his name on it.

So you say it's not good to speak ill of the dead or mock the church fathers.

Well mocking the dead would also be saying some dead person wrote something he never wrote

 

[kinda]

Why put the name of John Calvin on the tulip doctrine when he died 60 years or so before it was released.

John Calvin was noted as saying don't question Gods authority.

But tulip doctrine questions every bit of God's authority

So why do something your church father never wanted, or put his name on it.

So you say it's not good to speak ill of the dead or mock the church fathers.

Well mocking the dead would also be saying some dead person wrote something he never wrote

Please read the original post again, I'm not sure you really understood the purpose of this thread.

If your gonna quote John Calvin, can you please provide a link? Thanks!

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

Please read the original post again, I'm not sure you really understood the purpose of this thread.

If your gonna quote John Calvin, can you please provide a link? Thanks!

I've asked you this question 3 times.

Now you say church father are being mocked,

So this mean that this is bad feeling to you yes.

So now I want my bad feeling answered why I think John Calvin is being mocked.

So why won't you answer.

You have seen the truth the tulip doctrine was released 60 years after the death of John calvin.

So why put his name on the tulip doctrine, not you but other people.

If your not willing to see this monkey business then why should I see yours

 

[Cameron143]

At its heart are statues to William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox.

I think all Evangelicals and Protestants can give credit to the church elders of Geneva, for their contribution of the Christian faith.

We can't forget the first reformer from Germany, Martin Luther.

What I'm hoping for is a mostly positive and informative contributions of Biblical doctrines, by early church leaders in the dark ages.

Who would you say, is the most important Reformer?

Who would you say, got it mostly right in the Biblical sense?

Who would you recommend studying first, if your not familar with most of the early church elders?

How did these elders shape Western Churches and Biblical Studies?

No, I'm not trying to have a heated debate, the intention of this thread is to bring insight of our early church leaders, and how the help shaped Biblical doctrine?

This is an admirable goal. I hope it works out. Jesus, Himself, was quite the reformer. So those who live in times of spiritual darkness do great good in bringing enlightenment. The tendency is often to overcorrect passed abuses in doctrine and this often leads to errors in reformers. Another error is there are parts of the traditions of men that still linger with reformers. But I do believe we should learn their histories, be encouraged by their boldness, and learn from their mistakes.

 

[kinda]

I've asked you this question 3 times.

Now you say church father are being mocked,

So this mean that this is bad feeling to you yes.

So now I want my bad feeling answered why I think John Calvin is being mocked.

So why won't you answer.

You have seen the truth the tulip doctrine was released 60 years after the death of John calvin.

So why put his name on the tulip doctrine, not you but other people.

If your not willing to see this monkey business then why should I see yours

This was my reply to your question...Remember?

Do you also remember all the questions, I posted in this thread? You seem to have ignored them.

I'm gonna have to agree with Dino. Do your research.

Come back with, how what John Calvin wrote is fundamentally different, than what TULIP says. If you can do that, than maybe what you said, will mean something. If not, you are wasting time, and blowing smoke.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

This was my reply to your question...Remember?

Do you also remember all the questions, I posted in this thread? You seem to have ignored them.

blowing smoke again your not answering for yourself.

Your a imagination is unique to you knitted in your mother's womb by God

Now blowing smoke is believing Calvins all think the same here, they don't.

I've been given different answers to same questions of people believing in tulip

Some of them are not even genuine Calvinists here, there just here to troll.


Please answer the question

I'm not going to whip you if you answer.

 

[kinda]

This is an admirable goal. I hope it works out. Jesus, Himself, was quite the reformer. So those who live in times of spiritual darkness do great good in bringing enlightenment. The tendency is often to overcorrect passed abuses in doctrine and this often leads to errors in reformers. Another error is there are parts of the traditions of men that still linger with reformers. But I do believe we should learn their histories, be encouraged by their boldness, and learn from their mistakes.

Yeah, I think it's a worthy topic.

Was there one that you are drawn to, or they are about equal to you?

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah, I think it's a worthy topic.

Was there one that you are drawn to, or they are about equal to you?

I'm not really drawn to people so much as the doctrine. A return of salvation by grace through faith was very significant, as was the 5 Solas. It's normal in Christendom today to speak of such things, but it wasn't always so.
Another very significant advancement was the printing press. The ability to have the word of God so readily available we take for granted, but this too wasn't always so.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I'm not really drawn to people so much as the doctrine. A return of salvation by grace through faith was very significant, as was the 5 Solas. It's normal in Christendom today to speak of such things, but it wasn't always so.
Another very significant advancement was the printing press. The ability to have the word of God so readily available we take for granted, but this too wasn't always so.

who's life was breathed into Adam

 

[kinda]

I'm not really drawn to people so much as the doctrine. A return of salvation by grace through faith was very significant, as was the 5 Solas. It's normal in Christendom today to speak of such things, but it wasn't always so.
Another very significant advancement was the printing press. The ability to have the word of God so readily available we take for granted, but this too wasn't always so.

Yes, during Catholic rule, you had to pay the Priest, so you wouldn't end up in Purgatory, then just straight to heaven. The Reformers definitely deserve acknowledgement for their work.

Also, Catholicism forbid owning a Bible in the past, so these early Protestant leaders, were very much like the Disciples, and Apostles during Biblical times. Under constant threat of death and torture.

You mentioned Jesus as a Reformer in your other reply, HE definitely was and is. I think He was more of a Reformer for Judaism while HE was on earth physically, he definitely reformed the Jewish Faith for sure. Of course Jesus is God, and is in control.

William Farel:

"Farel started evangelizing the city of Geneva in December 1533 and was instrumental in convincing the whole city to embrace the Reformed faith. He preached the Word tirelessly in the streets, and later, when the priests and monks left the city, in church buildings. He convinced several other men to join him, notably Pierre Viret. He also engaged in several successful public disputations against Roman Catholic opponents."

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/who-was-william-farel

 

[kinda]

blowing smoke again your not answering for yourself.

Your a imagination is unique to you knitted in your mother's womb by God

Now blowing smoke is believing Calvins all think the same here, they don't.

I've been given different answers to same questions of people believing in tulip

Some of them are not even genuine Calvinists here, there just here to troll.


Please answer the question

I'm not going to whip you if you answer.

You have a deep interest in tulip topics. Have you heard of tulip mania?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Who would you say, is the most important Reformer?

This would be quite subjective. Each one was important in his own place. And John Wycliffe (long before the Reformation) was not a Reformer in the sense of being a Protestant, but he was already pointing out the errors of the Catholic Church and presenting Scripture to show the truth. And he also paid a high price for his beliefs.

Who would you say, got it mostly right in the Biblical sense?

Again that would depend on which of the Protestant denominations one was associated with (or none at all). Although Huldrych Zwingli's name is not associated with any group, he made some important contributions to the Reformation. But none of the Reformers truly got most things right in the biblical sense. They allowed the teachings of Augustine to influence their theology.

Who would you recommend studying first, if your not familar with most of the early church elders?

Actually Bible-beleiving Christians should stay away from the teachings and theology of the Reformers. It is more critical to go directly to the Word of God, and learn the truth.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You have a deep interest in tulip topics. Have you heard of tulip mania?

who's life was breathed into Adam.

 

[kinda]

This would be quite subjective. Each one was important in his own place. And John Wycliffe (long before the Reformation) was not a Reformer in the sense of being a Protestant, but he was already pointing out the errors of the Catholic Church and presenting Scripture to show the truth. And he also paid a high price for his beliefs.

Again that would depend on which of the Protestant denominations one was associated with (or none at all). Although Huldrych Zwingli's name is not associated with any group, he made some important contributions to the Reformation. But none of the Reformers truly got most things right in the biblical sense. They allowed the teachings of Augustine to influence their theology.

Actually Bible-beleiving Christians should stay away from the teachings and theology of the Reformers. It is more critical to go directly to the Word of God, and learn the truth.

So, John Wycliffe, and Huldrych Zingli. I heard of John Wycliffe, but not Huldrych Zingli.

I get your point about reading the Bible direct, but Bible commentary is certainly a thing, that some appreciate.


"John Wycliffe, (c. 1330–1384)British theologian, philosopher, and church reformer. He earned a doctor-of-divinity degree from Oxford in 1372. Named by Edward III to a deputation to discuss English differences with the papacy, he represented the government in its attempts to limit the church’s power in England.

His preaching against church policies, in which he argued that the church itself was sinful and should relinquish its possessions and return to evangelical poverty, attracted wide attention, and in 1377 the pope called for his arrest. In 1379 he began systematically attacking the foundations of Roman Catholicism, notably by repudiating the doctrine of transubstantiation and by denying that the church hierarchy represented a line of authoritative succession from Jesus.

In 1380 he became involved in a translation of the Bible into English, seeking to bypass the church in making the law of God accessible to all literate people. His followers were known as Lollards. He was blamed by his ecclesiastical superiors for inciting the Peasants’ Revolt (1381); many of his works were subsequently banned. His writings later inspired the leaders of the Reformation, most notably Martin Luther."

https://www.britannica.com/summary/John-Wycliffe

Zwingli became a reformer sometime between 1516 and 1522, probably independently of Luther. On January 1, 1519, he began to preach through Matthew rather than on the assigned passage for the day; he then moved on to other biblical books related to the people’s needs rather than the lectionary schedule. He later spoke of various influences moving him toward reform: Paul, John, Augustine’s writings on John, his teacher Wyttenbach’s rejection of indulgences, and a poem by Erasmus showing Christ alone as mediator. His near-death experience with the plague in August 1519 may also have contributed.

https://christianhistoryinstitute.o...n-reformation-the-life-and-thought-of-zwingli

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I think I like Presbyterians better I think they should be first as apparently there supposed to be equal rank.

But obviously the reformers seem to just reform everything and anything

 

[kinda]

who's life was breathed into Adam.

I thought who was on first base.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

You have a deep interest in tulip topics. Have you heard of tulip mania?

have you heard the sound of silence

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

I thought who was on first base.

well only if you put me there but lately you've had me on last base

 

[Deuteronomy]

Hello @kinda, if there is a "most important" Reformer, I think that would have to be Luther. I say this because he's the one who is credited with getting the Reformation started (on the day that he nailed his 95 Thesis to the church door in Wittenburg, which was October 31st, 1517).

Of course, part of the reason that Luther succeeded (where earlier church reformers, such as Jan Hus and John Wycliffe, had failed) was timing because, unlike Wycliffe and Hus, Luther (thanks in large part to the Renaissance) lived and taught under the rule of the powerful secular governments of his day, governments that afforded him certain protections (from the Roman Catholic Church) that men like Wycliffe and Hus (who were murdered by the RCC for their views) were not.

I believe that Calvin is nearly equal in importance to Luther and clearly, then, holds spot #2 on the "who is the most important Reformer" list. For instance, it's Calvin who, FAR more than any other Reformer, clearly defined what the Protestant faith is for us. Sadly though, because of a VERY small, but HIGHLY controversial part of his soteriological beliefs (e.g. "Limited Atonement"), few realize how important he truly was to both the Reformation and thereby, to the Protestant faith itself (because again, even though far less than 1% of what he believes and teaches is controversial to Protestants, in general, the controversial part is all that people focus on whenever his name is broached ).

As a closing point of interest and seldom seen (anymore) positive spin on the man, please check out some of what Jacobus Arminius had to say, both about Calvin himself, and about what he taught, as well (even though he obviously stood opposed to a small portion of his soteriological teachings). I agree with Arminius' assessment of Calvin's commentaries, and I would also like to point out, along with Arminius, the importance of his work called, Institutes of the Christian Religion, because it is within those pages, more than any other, that he defines what the Protestant faith is.

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy (David)

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“…after the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other (as the whole Academy, yea the conscience of my colleagues will testify) I recommend that the Commentaries of Calvin be read, whom I extol in higher terms than Helmichius himself. For I affirm that in the interpretation of the Scriptures Calvin is incomparable, and that his Commentaries are more to be valued than anything that is handed down to us in the Bibliotheca of the Fathers; so much so, that I concede to him a certain spirit of prophecy in which he stands distinguished above all others, above most, yea above all. His Institutes, so far as respects Commonplaces, I give out to be read after the Catechism, as a more extended explanation.” ~Arminius, Jacobus​

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