Theological Theories

[TheLearner]

Genesis 1:29-30

Easy-to-Read Version



29 God said, “I am giving you all the grain bearing plants and all the fruit trees. These trees make fruit with seeds in it. This grain and fruit will be your food. 30 And I am giving all the green plants to the animals. These green plants will be their food. Every animal on earth, every bird in the air, and all the little things that crawl on the earth will eat that food.” And all these things happened.

The proof text does not rule out animals eating meat before the fall.

Archeology clearly shows animals did eat meat before the fall.
https://www.nature.com/scitable/kno...ce-for-meat-eating-by-early-humans-103874273/
https://www.durham.ac.uk/news-event...-reveals-earliest-evidence-of-farmed-animals/
https://today.uconn.edu/2022/09/ancient-dung-reveals-earliest-evidence-for-animal-tending/#
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/dietary-reconstruction-and-near-eastern-archaeology/
https://www.popularmechanics.com/sc...74918/our-ancestors-butchered-ate-each-other/

"
The reading in the ISV “now I give you everything” is a minority reading. Most translations do not have the word “now.” Here is a link, giving the translation of this passage in most of the important English translations. https://biblehub.com/genesis/9-3.htm I am not saying that this rendering of the text you have above from the ISV is excluded, and I do not believe that your understanding of the text is absolutely wrong or mistaken, but, given the entirety of the Bible, and given the evidence from anatomy and other sciences, I conclude that this is probably not the best interpretation of the relevant passages. Please look at the translations of the passage to make a decision for yourself.

Also, here is a link for the interlinear Hebrew for comparison. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/9-3.htm You will see in this passage that there is not a word which is translated as “now” in the Hebrew, and it is not even clear that Gen 9:3 is talking about meat. It says something like “herbs, just as the green shall be food for you.” I wish all these questions were cut-and-dried and completely clear, but that is the way it is. I do not believe that there was ever a time in the past many millions of years that carnivores such as lions, eagles, dinosaurs, tuna and so forth did not eat meat, and I know of no theological imperative for why they should not have before the “Fall.” I also believe that Genesis 9:3 is not a good proof-text for pre-Fall vegetarianism.

John Oakes"
https://evidenceforchristianity.org...the-fall-humans-and-animals-were-vegetarians/



(Gen 4:3-4). Why was Abel a keeper of sheep? For what purpose? Perhaps to eat?

 

[Lynx]

"
In this biblical text God is explaining to the first man and woman, and through them all humanity, the authority and responsibility he is giving them. God puts humanity in charge of managing all of Earth’s resources for their own benefit and for the benefit of the rest of Earth’s life. Much amplification of this authority and responsibility is given in the book of Job. In Genesis 1:30 God commands humans to pay special attention to taking good care of the green vegetation (photosynthetic life). Green vegetation is the base of the entire food chain. Without green vegetation, nobody gets to eat. The more green vegetation there is and the more diverse it is, the better off will be all of Earth’s life.

This biblical text, therefore, is not saying that all animals were herbivores before Adam and Eve’s fall into sin. Herbivores need specially designed carnivores in order to keep their death rate and disease at low levels. Many field experiments affirm the devastation to herbivores that occurs when these herbivores lack carnivores. "
https://reasons.org/explore/publica...nesis-assert-that-all-animals-were-herbivores

"

We don't know how everything was balanced in Eden. Reproduction rates might have been changed at the fall. Rabbits breed like rabbits as a matter of species survival, but in Eden they didn't have to.

In the perfect world God designed, before sin wrecked it - yes, I can believe it was in perfect balance WITHOUT DEATH. Especially without animals killing other animals. Death happened because of sin.

 

[Lynx]

(Gen 4:3-4). Why was Abel a keeper of sheep? For what purpose? Perhaps to eat?

Yeah, AFTER sin came in.

God added meat to human diets when he kicked humans out of Eden, AFTER sin.

Lots of things changed after sin.

 

[TheLearner]

We don't know how everything was balanced in Eden. Reproduction rates might have been changed at the fall. Rabbits breed like rabbits as a matter of species survival, but in Eden they didn't have to.

In the perfect world God designed, before sin wrecked it - yes, I can believe it was in perfect balance WITHOUT DEATH. Especially without animals killing other animals. Death happened because of sin.

Archeology proves oterwise as I posted Brother, friend

 

[TheLearner]

Yeah, AFTER sin came in.

God added meat to human diets when he kicked humans out of Eden, AFTER sin.

Lots of things changed after sin.

What did he do before the fall?

 

[jonchristian]

Since I was invited to this thread, I'll share a theory I've worked on for some time.

I believe the center of the Earth...is water. I also think it's water all the way to the center. (Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.)

Here's a good link that explains a lot of it: A Bizarre Form of Water May Exist All Over the Universe | WIRED


Job 38: 4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—"

Job 38:
29: From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

Remember, this volume of water can also act a conductor with superionic ice as its center. Therefore, it would be capable of generating a magnetic field over the Earth.



I also believe this theory would work in conjunction with the expanding Earth theory. If the center of this Earth contained more of this ice in the pre-Flood world, then perhaps the melting of it caused "the deeps to break up" and caused the expansion of the continents.


If you share this anywhere, please give me credit, as this is a personal theory, and I haven't published it anywhere but here.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I have a theory that there was no such thing as direct sunlight before the flood. That's why they lived so much longer.

60 years ago, the Southern Baptists in Texas taught the "Ice Shield theory" - i.e. the entire earth was surrounded by a layer of ice, which filtered out the UV radiation, and acted to preserve live.

 

[maxwel]

Ex: if the sins we commit now go back to be absorbed by christ can our prayers also permeate time can we pray for the salvation for sombody that has already died? seeing that God is outside time?

Interesting thread - I'll share some of my thoughts:

1.) "If the sins we commit now go BACK to be absorbed by Christ, can our prayers also permeate TIME..."
I can't see any reason, from scripture, to believer our sins move backward through time.
I'm not aware of any sins that move backward through time - and if we examine scripture, we don't actually see anything, of any kind, moving backward through time.
Conclusion:
We always need to be carefully articulating the odd topic of time; it's so strange and confusing that it's hard to even use the right words to talk about it. But what about God's relationship to time? Well, for God to simply "know" the future, or "affect" the future, does not require any alteration of the space-time continuum.
a.) To "know" the future only requires God's attribute of omniscience.
b.) And as far as "affecting" the future, it is quite normal for even ordinary humans to "affect" the future, because EVERYONE in the past has affected the future.
: )

2.) "If the sins we commit now go BACK to be absorbed by Christ, can our PRAYERS also permeate TIME..."
You are basing a 2nd point, an additional point, upon the first point... but the first point was unproven, and we really have no reason to believe it to be true.
We can never base a new point on a previous point, when the previous point was never proven.
We have no evidence of sins moving backward through time.
Conclusion:
We have no example in scripture of either sins or prayers moving backward through time - we have no evidence in scripture of anything whatsoever moving backward through time.

3.) "Seeing that God is outside of time"
You state this as if it's a known fact that supports your previous suppositions... but it isn't a known fact at all.
There is no place in scripture that states God is "outside" of time.
Whenever God speaks in scripture, he always uses temporal expressions, expressions of before and after, as if he is "within time." And there is no place in scripture where God speaks as if he is outside of time.
Conclusion:
This whole issue of God's relationship to temporality is very speculative, and very controversial, and we don't really know much about it... but it is interesting that God NEVER speaks, on any subject, as if he is outside of time.



Just sharing some thoughts.

Interesting thread.

You guys have a great week.

.

 

[Lynx]

Since I was invited to this thread, I'll share a theory I've worked on for some time.

I believe the center of the Earth...is water. I also think it's water all the way to the center. (Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.)

Here's a good link that explains a lot of it: A Bizarre Form of Water May Exist All Over the Universe | WIRED


Job 38: 4“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—"

Job 38:
29: From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

Remember, this volume of water can also act a conductor with superionic ice as its center. Therefore, it would be capable of generating a magnetic field over the Earth.



I also believe this theory would work in conjunction with the expanding Earth theory. If the center of this Earth contained more of this ice in the pre-Flood world, then perhaps the melting of it caused "the deeps to break up" and caused the expansion of the continents.


If you share this anywhere, please give me credit, as this is a personal theory, and I haven't published it anywhere but here.

That would explain how the oceans have never all leaked out because of one crack in the ocean floor.

It would not explain where all the magma comes from that volcanoes shoot out, nor why they all put out the same kind of magma.

So, pluses and minuses. I guess we'll find out when we get to heaven.

 

[Lynx]

60 years ago, the Southern Baptists in Texas taught the "Ice Shield theory" - i.e. the entire earth was surrounded by a layer of ice, which filtered out the UV radiation, and acted to preserve live.

I'm not the first one? Phooey!

 

[Lynx]

Interesting thread - I'll share some of my thoughts:

1.) "If the sins we commit now go BACK to be absorbed by Christ, can our prayers also permeate TIME..."
I can't see any reason, from scripture, to believer our sins move backward through time.
I'm not aware of any sins that move backward through time - and if we examine scripture, we don't actually see anything, of any kind, moving backward through time.
Conclusion:
We always need to be carefully articulating the odd topic of time; it's so strange and confusing that it's hard to even use the right words to talk about it. But what about God's relationship to time? Well, for God to simply "know" the future, or "affect" the future, does not require any alteration of the space-time continuum.
a.) To "know" the future only requires God's attribute of omniscience.
b.) And as far as "affecting" the future, it is quite normal for even ordinary humans to "affect" the future, because EVERYONE in the past has affected the future.
: )

2.) "If the sins we commit now go BACK to be absorbed by Christ, can our PRAYERS also permeate TIME..."
You are basing a 2nd point, an additional point, upon the first point... but the first point was unproven, and we really have no reason to believe it to be true.
We can never base a new point on a previous point, when the previous point was never proven.
We have no evidence of sins moving backward through time.
Conclusion:
We have no example in scripture of either sins or prayers moving backward through time - we have no evidence in scripture of anything whatsoever moving backward through time.

3.) "Seeing that God is outside of time"
You state this as if it's a known fact that supports your previous suppositions... but it isn't a known fact at all.
There is no place in scripture that states God is "outside" of time.
Whenever God speaks in scripture, he always uses temporal expressions, expressions of before and after, as if he is "within time." And there is no place in scripture where God speaks as if he is outside of time.
Conclusion:
This whole issue of God's relationship to temporality is very speculative, and very controversial, and we don't really know much about it... but it is interesting that God NEVER speaks, on any subject, as if he is outside of time.



Just sharing some thoughts.

Interesting thread.

You guys have a great week.

.

The Bible does say something about sin and time though. And I sure am glad of it!
Ezekiel 33:12-16
Basically, if a righteous man starts sinning, all his righteousness doesn't mean a thing. But if a sinner turns around and shapes up, his sin doesn't mean a thing. It is literally counted as having never happened.

Time is very important for our sin. The moment we turn from our sin, we are counted as righteous. The moment we turn from our righteousness, we are sinners.

 

[Edify]

I will speculatate this... Since all animals were herbivores before the curse, dinosaurs would have to be around after the curse because many of them were carnivores.

 

[Billyd]

60 years ago, the Southern Baptists in Texas taught the "Ice Shield theory" - i.e. the entire earth was surrounded by a layer of ice, which filtered out the UV radiation, and acted to preserve live.

I've been a Southern Baptist for close to over 80 years and never heard that taught. I lived in Florida.

 

[Cameron143]

I've been a Southern Baptist for close to over 80 years and never heard that taught. I lived in Florida.

The ice shield melted in Florida.

 

[gb9]

The ice shield melted in Florida.

that pesky global warming!!

 

[Gideon300]

Howdy and welcome to the forum.


I have a theory that there was no such thing as direct sunlight before the flood. That's why they lived so much longer.

The Bible says the firmament above was broken up to provide some of the water for the flood. That was right about the same time humans' lifespans got a lot shorter.

Also it seems we were not designed to bear direct sunlight. Our skins burn if we stay out too long, it causes cancer... shoot, even the grass starts growing much taller than the carpet God intended it to be. Places in the yard that have shade all day long have nice carpet height grass, a perfect covering to walk on.

One theory is that there was exceedingly high humidity that filtered the UV. It likely never rained until the flood. Once the rain removed the majority of the water vapour, yes, the sun's rays were much more destructive. Cosmic radiation does more than burn the skin, it damages cells by ionisation.

It is also possible that the earth was not tilted prior to the flood. No one knows for sure, but there is some evidence to suggest this.

 

[Gideon300]

The ice shield melted in Florida.

All that hot air..........

 

[Mem]

There is a Jewish (I don't know what word) that considers that if you murder a man, you are destroying an entire world considering all of the potential progeny he would've generated if he were not destroyed. And, indeed, sin, entered into 'the world' through Adam, and death through sin. So, if the perimeters regarding the 'world' is limited to the order of mankind, then death may have existed before Adam sinned. I mean, if we are going to dine on pickled onions, then some plants have to die.

Oh, and cats are designed to rip guts out and lap up blood like vampires. They're cuisine of choice are the innards.

 

[Mem]

Of course, the day will come when these chew cud alongside the cow. And then we will know that all of creation is perfected. I'm just not sure that, albeit as it was good and even very good, I'm not one hundred percent sure that it started out as perfect.

 

[TheLearner]

rth