Predestination is misunderstood...

[Thunderrr-mental]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

If someone is willing to surrender to god's truth will God save them

 

[Genez]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

1 John 2:2​

​

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only ​

for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."​

Not just for you who believe.
He died for the sins of the whole world.
The Word does not lie.

The fact that some do not believe has nothing to do with Jesus paying for their sins.

In spite of the truth that their sins all not be an issue (as I showed you)..
And, that He died for the sins of the whole world?

You will not let that get in your way because of what you were taught and accepted as a baby Christian.

Fact: Nobody will go to the Lake of Fire for their sins....

That bothers you because you can not make sense of it.

So? To ease the pain of confusion?
Someone made something up so you will not have to dwell on it...

So be it.

 

[Genez]

Did you get this stuff from Eastern Mysticisms?, it sounds like the philosophy of Confuses., The bible would never teach that sort of gobbledygook.

Keep your day job....

 

[Genez]

i don't want to shock you out of your comfort zone.

John Calvin did not write TULIP.

After his death, a student of his, Theodore Beza, and some other students worked together and concocted the concept.
The TULIP of Calvinism


grace and peace .............

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

They dont believe because Christ didnt die for them as He did His Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Believing in Christ comes with the fact He died for you. So if one never believes, its because He never died for them taking away their sins. See His Death takes away sin and its awful consequences 1 Jn 3:5

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Unbelief is the consequences of sin

John chapter 10 is about the PARABLE of the SHEEP:
What did Jesus say about the Jews and His PARABLES?

14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

It fulfills Isaiah

9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Paul explains it this way

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”


The Jews could not understand because what God did to them.
It had NOTHING to do with Jesus not dying for them because He did!

 

[Genez]

Please enlighten me, I would love for someone to find a single fault with TULIP, then I'll jump ship and join you Armenians. Every Arminian promises to find a fault and I have offered my house to anyone who can but I've been waiting years and nobody has come forward to claim it.

1 Timothy 4:10​

​

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, ​

who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

If you want to secure a salaried job heading up a church, at least pay your dues before you do.

For its always easy to attract dumb believers and make money off of them.
Easy. Just tell them what they want to hear.

 

[PaulThomson]

I guess yom means tides instead of one earth cycle.

Did I mention tides? Was her a typo?

But it is clear that yom in chapter two does not mean the same as yom in chapter one, right. In chapter two God made the heavens and the earth in a yom, In chapter one God made the heavens and the earth in 6 yomiym. and rested on the seventh. Maybe yom is a week in chapter two. Or maybe one thousand years, But definitely not one 24 hour day. Which means "to die will be dying" in that chapter two yom, was not instant and complete death, spiritual or physical. as our Calvinist scourger would pretend.

 

[7thMoon]

Or maybe one thousand years, But definitely not one 24 hour day.

It means one cycle of day and night. You defend evolution and the trinity doctrine. That is one crazy deity.

 

[Charlie_2024]

where does one start?

How are you at persevering? Must be alot of hard work..

I don't take any of the insults personally. The Lord showed perfect humility and perseverance when said " Father forgive them for they know not what they do".
That showed that men hate the truth so much that they are prepared to kill those who proclaim the truth.

We are all born enemies of God, and dead in our sin and trespasses. But we don't know who God has purposed to save, so we can't give up hope on anyone but we can judge them according to their fruits. Most confuse my judgement with Gods final judgement, I have tried to explain that I don't poses the authority to pass the final judgement, that's Gods business.

 

[PaulThomson]

It means one cycle of day and night. You defend evolution and the trinity doctrine. That is one crazy deity.

Then why does Gen. 2:4 say, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, IN THE YoM/DAY THAT THE LORD MADE THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS."
Please, explain how God made the heavens and the earth in one YoM AND in six YoMiYM ?

Have I defended evolution somewhere? Really?

 

[7thMoon]

Then why does Gen. 2:4 say, "These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, IN THE YoM/DAY THAT THE LORD MADE THE EARTH AND THE HEAVENS."
Please, explain how God made the heavens and the earth in one YoM AND in six YoMiYM ?

Have I defended evolution somewhere? Really?

It is a different account at Geneis 2:4; but you didn't that in the day doesn't mean the length of one earthtide, rather it just means which earthtide it was done. Please explain where it says it only took one YoM.

The elevations and the earth were created first in one tide, which leaves 5 more tides of creation. I could be mistaken. Also, the word translated from Hebrew as Heaven means elevation, peak or mountain, not sky or expanse

Okay, you don't defend it, but you seem to believe the "theory".

 

[Charlie_2024]

Total depravity Gen. 2:17. Does Gen. 2:17 say that after Adam's eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, all humans are conceived and born totally depraved, i.e. with every faculty corrupted and unable to do anything good?

Gen 2:15-17
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

What does the text say?
!. After making Adam, God put him in Eden.
2. God gave Adan a responsibility to fulfil, to dress and keep it.
3. God gave Adam permission to eat from every tree in the garden except one., the tree of the knowledge of eood and Evil.
4. God told Adam that within a "YoM" of eating the forbidden tree, he would die.
5. During creation in chapter 1, and 2:1-3 each YoM was defined as including one evening and one morning. Possibly , either a period of daylight ending in evening and a period of darkness ending in morning; or possibly a period of darkness beginning with evening followed by a period of light beginning with morning. The Jewish teachers were divided on whether the "YoM" began at darkness of began dawn. But either way, it was a 24 hour day. The creation narrative of Chapter 1 to 2:3 was possibly being described from the creation's perspective rather than God's. A YoM was therefore probably the 24 hour light and dark cycle.
6. Chapter 2:4 -25 is possibly being described from God's perspective, so that a Yom could be one of God's days of 1000 years. The second creation account starts with "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, IN THE YoM that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens. " It seems to me that this YoM , or time interval, includes at least the five days of creation preceding the creation of man, and probably also includes the sixth, so it is not a 24 hour YoM. Peter writes of God having days/YoMiYM that are 100 of our years. Since 2:4 says that days 1-5 of chapter 1 happened in one day in chapter 2, it is not possible that a YoM in chapter 2 is a 24 hour day, and would likely be a 1000 yer long day, since Adam died within 930 years of stealing the forbidden fruit, and as we will see, God had warned Adam that he would "to die be dying" in the YoM he ate the fruit.


v5. And every plant of the field before it was being (qal incomplete, imperfect) in the earth, and every herb of the field before it was growing (qal incomplete, imperfect). For the LORD had not caused it to rain (hiphil complete, pluperfect)., and [there was] no man to till the earth.
v6. And-a-mist was going up )incomplete, imperfect) from the ground and-was-watering (weqatall perfect sequential, hence an imperfect sense) the whole face of the ground.
v7. And-had-formed (qal wayiqtol, imperfect sequential therefore a completed sense) the LORD a man of the dust of the ground, and-had-breathed (qal wayiqtol, imperfect, hence an opposite completed sense) into his nostrils the breath of life; and-had-become the man (wayiqtol imperfect sequential, therefore an opposite completed sense) a living soul.
v8. And-had-planted (qal wayiqtol, incomplete sequential, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God a garden in Eden eastward and-he-had-put (qal wayiqtol imperfect, hence an opposite completed sense) there the man whom he-had-formed (qal perfect, no waw, therefore the actual completed sense).
v9. And-had-made-grow (hiphil wayiqtol imperfect sequential, hence the opposite perfect meaning) the LORD God out of the ground every tree pleasant to the sight and good for food. And-the-tree of life in the midst of the garden, and-the-tree-of the knowledge of good and evil.
v10. And-a-river going out (qal participle absolute) of Eden for to water the garden. And-from-thence it-was-parting (Niphal imperfect) and-was-becoming (qal weqatal perfect sequential, therefore opposite imperfect sense) into four heads.
v11 The name of the first [was] Pison, that compassing (qal participle absolute) the whole land of Havilah, where [was] gold.
v.12 The gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone.
v13. And-the-name of the second river [was] Gihon: the same [was] it compassing (qal participle absolute) the whole land of Ethiopia.
v14. And-the-name of the third river [was] Hiddekel, that going (qal participle absolute) toward the east of Assyria. And-the-river fourth [was] Euphrates.
v15. And-had-taken (qal wayiqtol imperfect, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God the man, and-had-put-him (hiphil wayiqtol imperfect, therefore with a completed sense in the garden of Eden to dress it (qal infinitive construct) and to keep it (qal infinitive construct).
v16. And-commanded (piel sequential imperfect, therefore an opposite completed sense) the LORD God the man saying (qal infinitive construct) , "Of every tree of the garden you will be eating (qal imperfect ) freely:
v.17 But-of-the-tree of the knowledge of good and evil you-shall-not-be-eating (qal imperfect) of it: for in the YoM that you eat (qal infinitive construct) from it to die (qal infinitive absolute) you-shall-be-dying (qal imperfect)."

The chains of sequential verbs that follow the rules for sequential chains of waw-prefixed verbs are in colours and bold. The first verb in a chain is waw-less. Subsequent verbs added to that chain have a waw prefix but are in the opposite aspect to their apparent form. A chain is broken by any verb without waw. And a new chain or waw-prefixed verbs follows until the next waw-less verb.

From this we see that God forewarned Adam that in the YoM Adam ate the fruit he would "to die be dying", which sounds to me like dying slowly until completely dead. So, he did not die immediately when he ate. He began to die, and died at age 930 years. Gen 2:17 does not support the Calvinist claims made about it: that Adam died immediately and was therefore incapable of doing any good. And their claim that we similarly are conceived already dead and incapable of doing good. We begin to die when we are conceived, and eventually die in physical death.

Now, it is in Charlie's court to explain how Gen. 2:17 says we descendants of Adam are afflicted with total depravity from conception. If his very first listed ext is spurious, the rest are likely to also be spurious.

You've really got yourself in a tangle there, and rejecting Gods Word is not helping your Arminian cause.

God never said, "I will use the Japanese water drip slow kill method, on the day you eat of it". He said on the day you eat you will "die" but you say, "hath God said, ye shall die". See my understanding is that anyone who says "hath God said" is doing what Satan did.

I wouldn't dare question anything God ever did or said, that's a deadly sin as it shows unbelief and unbelief is blasphemy

 

[7thMoon]

. It says here in a.calvinist belief


https://www.christianity.com/wiki/christian-terms/what-is-tulip-in-calvinism.html

What Is Unconditional Election in TULIP?
The phrase unconditional election screams predestination to opponents of Calvinism and comforts its proponents. Unconditional election is faith that God has predestined those who have and will surrender to the Lord Jesus. Calvinists


It says here in a Calvinist belief Jesus is willing to save anyone willing to surrender to him.

So how can anyone be totally depraved and unable to respond to God.

Because here it's saying if you are willing.

So how is it you can even be willing if your unable to respond.

Because this is what I've been hearing from other calvinists here


I've also been hearing no-one has been saved in 6000 years from Calvinists or even spoke to Jesus in 2000 years

Because there saying they where chosen to be saved before the fall.

But here in this Calvinist belief it's saying if you are willing to surrender to be saved he will save you.

So why are you all saying different things.

Is TULIP really Calvinism; and does Doctor James White pretend to believe in it?

 

[Charlie_2024]

So you think the Bible doesn't teach Jesus was fully human or that we are born spiritually dead with a sin nature?

I never said I don't believe that the bible teaches that Jesus is fully human. And I never claimed that we are not born spiritually dead with a sin nature. Not sure how you came to these conclusions

John Calvin did not write TULIP.

After his death, a student of his, Theodore Beza, and some other students worked together and concocted the concept.
The TULIP of Calvinism


grace and peace .............

Jesus didn't write the Bible, some students of His concocted it after His death

 

[Charlie_2024]

1 Timothy 4:10​

​

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, ​

who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.​

If you want to secure a salaried job heading up a church, at least pay your dues before you do.

For its always easy to attract dumb believers and make money off of them.
Easy. Just tell them what they want to hear.

OK, so according to your interpretation of 1 Timothy 4:10 The Lord Jesus Christ was a liar and the biggest loser.

According to your interpretation, Jesus promised to save all people but then He had a schizophrenic attack and cast the vast majority of people into hell instead. Can you see why I reject your Arminian gospel.

You didn't share your view on the "and especially of those who believe" part so I can't comment on it

 

[Genez]

You've really got yourself in a tangle there, and rejecting Gods Word is not helping your Arminian cause.

Its either Arminianism or Calvinism with you. Isn't it?

There is nothing else.....

 

[PaulThomson]

You've really got yourself in a tangle there, and rejecting Gods Word is not helping your Arminian cause.

God never said, "I will use the Japanese water drip slow kill method, on the day you eat of it". He said on the day you eat you will "die" but you say, "hath God said, ye shall die". See my understanding is that anyone who says "hath God said" is doing what Satan did.

I wouldn't dare question anything God ever did or said, that's a deadly sin as it shows unbelief and unbelief is blasphemy

Ha ha Ha ! You have no ability to exegete even the first one of your calvinist proof texts, and you aspire to be a Calvinist pastor. You are apparently ideally-qualified for that role.

The emperor has no clothes. I will wait patiently for you to do some independent real thinking of your own, and deal with the substance I have place before you from Gen. 1 and 2. I have good news for you. You can be a disciple of Jesus Christ, even a better disciple, without holding on to Calvinist nonsense. You won't have to give up Christianity, only Calvinism, when you realise how very wrong you are.

 

[Genez]

Jesus didn't write the Bible, some students of His concocted it after His death

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training ​

in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.​

2 Timothy 3:16-17​

​

For someone who wants to take responsibility to shepherd over God's people?​

You are scary bad at understanding that basic vital truth....


Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about ​

by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its ​

origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as ​

they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21​

...............

 

[Charlie_2024]

Its either Arminianism or Calvinism with you. Isn't it?

There is nothing else.....

Well, you're one of them whether you realize it or not. It might help if you look into the subject instead of making baseless claims.

 

[Genez]

Ha ha Ha ! You have no ability to exegete even the first one of your calvinist proof texts, and you aspire to be a Calvinist pastor. You are apparently ideally-qualified for that role.

Let the Calvinists have him.....