Revelation: A Cyclical View
- Thread starter Chaps
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The book of Revelation is “apocalyptic literature.” Various books of the Bible are written in different genres. For instance, when you read the Psalms, you are reading poetry and song. Sometimes in the Psalms, we are reading about the author’s feelings or desires. To read every book as a scientific textbook is an error, in my opinion. When David writes, “Surely I was born in sin” he is referring to his loathing of his sinful state and absolute depravity. However, to suggest he is making an argument for “original sin” is to lose sight of the genre.
I do believe that what John sees in this vision is “fact” but I also believe that these facts are communicated through metaphors. For instance, if I say, “I feel like a million bucks” you understand that I am NOT saying I feel like pieces of paper. When John says he saw Jesus with seven eyes and seven horns, he is not describing a “fact” about Jesus’ appearance. He is describing the omnipotence and omniscience of Jesus. Thus, the “binding” of Satan is described as referring to his ability to “deceive the nations.” To argue that this spiritual figure is actually put in spiritual handcuffs is to miss the point, in my opinion. The reason I think this refers to the preaching of the Gospel I infer from other passages in the NT that also refer to Satan being “bound” which I explained in a previous post.
I do believe that what John sees in this vision is “fact” but I also believe that these facts are communicated through metaphors. For instance, if I say, “I feel like a million bucks” you understand that I am NOT saying I feel like pieces of paper. When John says he saw Jesus with seven eyes and seven horns, he is not describing a “fact” about Jesus’ appearance. He is describing the omnipotence and omniscience of Jesus. Thus, the “binding” of Satan is described as referring to his ability to “deceive the nations.” To argue that this spiritual figure is actually put in spiritual handcuffs is to miss the point, in my opinion. The reason I think this refers to the preaching of the Gospel I infer from other passages in the NT that also refer to Satan being “bound” which I explained in a previous post.
-
1
- Show all
If you cannot see the Scriptural support given the multiple passages I quoted that refer to the binding of Satan and binding and loosing things on heaven and earth, I cannot help you any further. You may not agree with my interpretation, but to say I am not using Scripture is disingenuous.
-
1
- Show all
Near after the messiah was taken up to his throne in heaven
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
…..And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”
Revelation 12:5, 7 KJV
“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
Mark 16:19
“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
…..And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”
Revelation 12:5, 7 KJV
-
1
- Show all
“And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.”
Luke 10:18 KJV
I’d say a reference to Satan falling from heaven but before the war in heaven
in revelation 12 this happens on earth before the war in heaven
“And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”
Revelation 12:4
It’s speculation but I’m assuming Satan was tossed out of heaven for what he did in Eden. But we see in job he’s wandering e earth and also sometimes appearing before God to accuse men
So he had fallen already but he still showed up
“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
Job 1:6-7 KJV
and then this also
“And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.”
Zechariah 3:1
My theory off the top of my head is that jesus was referring to the Old Testament when we’re told Lucifer fell from heaven , and revelation is referring to when he went to war in heaven corrupting a third of the angels but he lost and lost his place forever and can’t return anymore to accuse mankind after jesus died and rose and was seated on his throne in heaven
to simplify I think Satan fell because of what he did in the Old Testament but the war didn’t happen until Christ arrives in heaven first Satan tries to stop his mission on earth but he failed of course then he followed him into heaven in a rage and lost the heavenly war then he turned his rage on Jerusalem and the early church when he saw he could t return to heaven after Jesus arrived and the kingdom and power of Christ had come to fulfillment
“and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. ( hes now banned forever )
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, ( out of heaven into earth never to return again ) and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: ( because Jesus was seated now and the war was won in heaven ) for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, ( Jerusalem ) and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”( those of Israel carrying out the great commission after Jesus ascended )
Revelation 12:8-12, 17 KJV
I think he fell from his place in heaven long before but hadn’t yet been banned and barred or went to war on heaven until Jesus ascended after the atonement and Satan knew he had lost the battle.
But again make sure you keep a salt shaker handy to take with all that just an opinion from “el foolio von zz”
Luke 10:18 KJV
I’d say a reference to Satan falling from heaven but before the war in heaven
in revelation 12 this happens on earth before the war in heaven
“And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.”
Revelation 12:4
It’s speculation but I’m assuming Satan was tossed out of heaven for what he did in Eden. But we see in job he’s wandering e earth and also sometimes appearing before God to accuse men
So he had fallen already but he still showed up
“Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”
Job 1:6-7 KJV
and then this also
“And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.”
Zechariah 3:1
My theory off the top of my head is that jesus was referring to the Old Testament when we’re told Lucifer fell from heaven , and revelation is referring to when he went to war in heaven corrupting a third of the angels but he lost and lost his place forever and can’t return anymore to accuse mankind after jesus died and rose and was seated on his throne in heaven
to simplify I think Satan fell because of what he did in the Old Testament but the war didn’t happen until Christ arrives in heaven first Satan tries to stop his mission on earth but he failed of course then he followed him into heaven in a rage and lost the heavenly war then he turned his rage on Jerusalem and the early church when he saw he could t return to heaven after Jesus arrived and the kingdom and power of Christ had come to fulfillment
“and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. ( hes now banned forever )
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, ( out of heaven into earth never to return again ) and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: ( because Jesus was seated now and the war was won in heaven ) for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, ( Jerusalem ) and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”( those of Israel carrying out the great commission after Jesus ascended )
Revelation 12:8-12, 17 KJV
I think he fell from his place in heaven long before but hadn’t yet been banned and barred or went to war on heaven until Jesus ascended after the atonement and Satan knew he had lost the battle.
But again make sure you keep a salt shaker handy to take with all that just an opinion from “el foolio von zz”
-
2
-
1
- Show all
But scripture says he cannot return to heaven once he is kicked out.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Satan was not kicked out of heaven for anything related to the garden because he was freely in heaven after that. A war is fought in heaven and satan loses and he is kicked out because of that and that happens after Christ ascended into heaven but before the GT starts. I personally believe satan was kicked out following that war already.
-
1
- Show all
Not a problem brother we often find agreement and even when we aren’t in full agreement I always appreciate you good and brotherly spirit you interact with as a good example also you are pretty funny so thanks for putting up with my foolishness sometimes
let it be done on earth ….as it is in heaven .
“In the beginning God created the heaven
and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1 KJV
In heaven
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”
Revelation 12:7 KJV
and on earth
“And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:13, 17
let it be done on earth ….as it is in heaven .
“In the beginning God created the heaven
and the earth.”
Genesis 1:1 KJV
In heaven
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”
Revelation 12:7 KJV
and on earth
“And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
Revelation 12:13, 17
-
1
- Show all
Daniel 12:1
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Michael is the prince that protects the people of Israel.
who stands guard over the sons of your people
Michael is important because so much of the prophecy in the gospels.
Relates to the nation of Israel, the temple, Jerusalem, etc.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
What generation will not pass away?
Where getting closer?
Think 70 AD.
Hope that helps you in your quest to discover the timing of the fulfillment of
at least part of the book of Revelation. In addition, much of the prophecy in
Matthew 24 and Luke 21, was fulfilled in 70 AD. I did not say all end time
prophecy was fulfilled, especially the times of the Gentiles ( Luke 21:24).
“Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
Michael is the prince that protects the people of Israel.
who stands guard over the sons of your people
Michael is important because so much of the prophecy in the gospels.
Relates to the nation of Israel, the temple, Jerusalem, etc.
Matthew 24:34
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
What generation will not pass away?
Where getting closer?
Think 70 AD.
Hope that helps you in your quest to discover the timing of the fulfillment of
at least part of the book of Revelation. In addition, much of the prophecy in
Matthew 24 and Luke 21, was fulfilled in 70 AD. I did not say all end time
prophecy was fulfilled, especially the times of the Gentiles ( Luke 21:24).
-
1
-
1
- Show all
The nineteenth century spawned so many sects, interpretations and even alternate views of eschatology.
Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, the list goes on and on.
That was the century in which if you got an idea you started a new church movement.
Is there a correlation between the last Inquisition in Spain in 1830.
And the prolific rise of Christian sects and various interpretations?
Or was the spread of public education during the 1800's the reason.
The Bible was widely printed and available for everyone who could now
read.
Nearly all of the sects grew in one specific country and the name of that country
I will not mention. That specific country has a law allowing religious freedom.
Hmmmmm.
So much to consider.
Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, the list goes on and on.
That was the century in which if you got an idea you started a new church movement.
Is there a correlation between the last Inquisition in Spain in 1830.
And the prolific rise of Christian sects and various interpretations?
Or was the spread of public education during the 1800's the reason.
The Bible was widely printed and available for everyone who could now
read.
Nearly all of the sects grew in one specific country and the name of that country
I will not mention. That specific country has a law allowing religious freedom.
Hmmmmm.
So much to consider.
“And there are seven kings:
five are fallen, ( past tense )
and one is, ( johns present in first century ad)
and the other is not yet come; ( future) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. ….And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”( future tense )
Revelation 17:10, 12 KJV
five are fallen, ( past tense )
and one is, ( johns present in first century ad)
and the other is not yet come; ( future) and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. ….And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.”( future tense )
Revelation 17:10, 12 KJV
-
1
- Show all
I think a lot of it had to do with various denominations (Lutherans in Germany, Episcopalians in England, so on and so forth) coming to the US. A lot of challenges arose from debates and challenges over the mixing of various denominations which led to a lot of new movements such as the charismatic movement, non-denominational movements as well as a lot of cults…as you mentioned. Anyway, that‘s my take from the little church history study I’ve done.
-
1
- Show all