Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

[FollowerofShiloh]

How exactly did that work?

The moment Jesus died the Old Testament people who were faithful to the Law resurrected to Heaven.
Lazarus/Rich Man/Father Abraham's Bosom...

*I mention Rich man to illustrate Jesus Own Words.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

And the prophet Habakuk? Was he before of after the Law? And what part of Heb 3:19 didn't you get? And what part Gal 3:10 don't you get? No one was ever justified by law because no could keep it perfectly. The purpose of the Law was NEVER to save anyone! (Gal 3:19-22). You have an incredibly low view of God!

Hebrews is about unbelief.
I said Moses, Joshua, David...people who did believe.

I did not say the Law justified them but obeying it is what led to their salvation when Jesus died.

Lazarus/Rich Man/Father Abraham's Bosom...

*I mention Rich man to illustrate Jesus Own Words.

 

[Rufus]

I disagree with yours, and James says we are justified by works.

[James 2:21, 24-25 KJV] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ... 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

And, of course, you're going to reconcile the contradiction between James' theology and Paul's, right, who said no one is justified by the law (Gal 2:16)?

 

[Rufus]

Hebrews is about unbelief.
I said Moses, Joshua, David...people who did believe.

I did not say the Law justified them but obeying it is what led to their salvation when Jesus died.

Lazarus/Rich Man/Father Abraham's Bosom...

*I mention Rich man to illustrate Jesus Own Words.

You said nothing about their faith!

And what "led to their salvation -- what secured their salvation -- was not obedience to the Law but their FAITH! Why do you think Habakkuk wrote what he did?

Yes, Heb 3:19 is about the lack of faith of the Israelites under the Old Covenant. That's why the passage is relevant. Didn't you bother to read the context?

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You said nothing about their faith!

And what "led to their salvation -- what secured their salvation -- was not obedience to the Law but their FAITH! Why do you think Habakkuk wrote what he did?

Yes, Heb 3:19 is about the lack of faith of the Israelites under the Old Covenant. That's why the passage is relevant. Didn't you bother to read the context?

Who would obey the Law without having faith in God?
The Law was God's Law and no one else.
To obey it means to obey GOD!

 

[Cameron143]

The moment Jesus died the Old Testament people who were faithful to the Law resurrected to Heaven.
Lazarus/Rich Man/Father Abraham's Bosom...

*I mention Rich man to illustrate Jesus Own Words.

You misunderstand the rich man. What Jesus made known to him was that he actually hadn't kept the law from his youth...otherwise, he would have gladly given all he had to the poor. He actually didn't love God with all his heart. Seems he loved money more.
OT saints when absent from the body were present with the Lord. Abraham's bosom and Paradise are euphemisms for heaven.
Only one way of salvation...Jesus.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

You misunderstand the rich man. What Jesus made known to him was that he actually hadn't kept the law from his youth...otherwise, he would have gladly given all he had to the poor. He actually didn't love God with all his heart. Seems he loved money more.
OT saints when absent from the body were present with the Lord. Abraham's bosom and Paradise are euphemisms for heaven.
Only one way of salvation...Jesus.

I said Rich Man because of Lazarus. Lazarus was my intended viewpoint but used the Parable/Story from Luke to ensure readers knew which Lazarus.

Rich Man is like Saul, in Hell (presumably)..

 

[Cameron143]

I said Rich Man because of Lazarus. Lazarus was my intended viewpoint but used the Parable/Story from Luke to ensure readers knew which Lazarus.

Rich Man is like Saul, in Hell (presumably)..

Sure...he's in hell. But not because he didn't keep the law. He's in hell because his religion taught him about Abraham and Moses, but it never reconciled him to God.
Religion has the same effect today. Many come to know a denomination, the Pastor, the music, and even the Bible, yet never come to know God.

 

[selahsays]

I see you have "conveniently" skipped 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling

That is saying what I have been saying.

So are you saying that salvation is by works?

 

[7thMoon]

And, of course, you're going to reconcile the contradiction between James' theology and Paul's, right, who said no one is justified by the law (Gal 2:16)?

Of course? ἐξ ἔργων νόμου, for example, means out of / from the works of the command literally. The doing of the law caused by law enforcement does not justify anyone. One has to trust, and be mentally obedient. ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ means lest he may with the faith of Jesus Christ. Basically, Paul argues trust in the messiah Jesus is easier than punishment by law.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

So are you saying that salvation is by works?

Salvation is a "Gift" from God. Working out your salvation through fear and trembling is making decisions to keep you from being tempted to fail. It means listening to God and doing what God tells you.

I do not watch x-rated movies, drink, smoke, cuss, let bad influences around me, don't hang out in bars, because these things (for me only) could cause me to stumble and become strongholds in my life.

I know the entrapments of Satan and I stay away from them. I keep my mind occupied with God so things that can open doors to separate me from God don't happen.

God is my instructor. By doing those things I am obeying Him because He only shows me what to do in order that I don't fall away from Him. I do my best to let His Will be done.

 

[7thMoon]

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, [and from και in greek] we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

 

[Rufus]

Who would obey the Law without having faith in God?
The Law was God's Law and no one else.
To obey it means to obey GOD!

It's the natural, corrupt and prideful inclination of the heart to want to obey the letter of the law apart from any real spiritual tie to the Lawgiver via faith. It's man's way of earning his salvation. This is the way of all the world's religions, save for Christianity.

 

[Rufus]

Of course? ἐξ ἔργων νόμου, for example, means out of / from the works of the command literally. The doing of the law caused by law enforcement does not justify anyone. One has to trust, and be mentally obedient. ἐὰν μὴ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ means lest he may with the faith of Jesus Christ. Basically, Paul argues trust in the messiah Jesus is easier than punishment by law.

Your paragraph above is incoherent. Are you saying we are justified by our faith and law-keeping? If so, this still contradicts Pauline theology.

 

[selahsays]

It's the natural, corrupt and prideful inclination of the heart to want to obey the letter of the law apart from any real spiritual tie to the Lawgiver via faith. It's man's way of earning his salvation. This is the way of all the world's religions, save for Christianity.

Yes.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

- Ephesians 2:8-10

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It's the natural, corrupt and prideful inclination of the heart to want to obey the letter of the law apart from any real spiritual tie to the Lawgiver via faith. It's man's way of earning his salvation. This is the way of all the world's religions, save for Christianity.

I am not talking about keeping the Law after Jesus arrived onto the scene.
I thought we were discussing the Old Testament.
Do you even remember the posts you make because you change the topic randomly and it's difficult to keep up with your habit...?

 

[Rufus]

I am not talking about keeping the Law after Jesus arrived onto the scene.
I thought we were discussing the Old Testament.
Do you even remember the posts you make because you change the topic randomly and it's difficult to keep up with your habit...?

We are discussing the OT. Why do you think I pointed you to Heb 3:19!

Let me give you a clue: God never had two different plans of salvation: on by OC Law and another by NC grace. Scripture speaks to several purposes for the Law...and none of them were a way to salvation.

Give me a scripture that teaches that without obedience to the Law it's impossible to please God.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

We are discussing the OT. Why do you think I pointed you to Heb 3:19!

Let me give you a clue: God never had two different plans of salvation: on by OC Law and another by NC grace. Scripture speaks to several purposes for the Law...and none of them were a way to salvation.

Give me a scripture that teaches that without obedience to the Law it's impossible to please God.

Where did I say the Law was salvation? I said those who followed the Law (of God) would be saved by the Death of Jesus.

 

[Rufus]

Here is the correct understanding of Jas 2:24 and how it does not contradict Gen 15:16; Rom 4:3-6; 10-11; 22-24 or Gal 3:6.

https://www.gotquestions.org/salvation-faith-alone.html

 

[Rufus]

Where did I say the Law was salvation? I said those who followed the Law (of God) would be saved by the Death of Jesus.

Then you're teaching salvation by works. Obeying the Law precedes salvation by the Death of Jesus. One is earning his salvation. Typical NR quid pro quo salvation arrangement.