Predestination is misunderstood...

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Mar 23, 2016
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It is a sign of a good faith offer to do so, provided noth sides keep their respective commitments concerning the property in the interim.
I trust God to fulfill His promise. He redeemed me and He promises to keep me. I am a born again child of God and I do not believe there is any way to become "unborn".

I may falter along the way, but that affects my day to day relationship with the Father ... it does not mean I am no longer His child.

Just like my children if and when they behaved foolishly, they were still my children. Their foolishness did not sever the parent – child relationship. Their foolishness only affected the close communion we enjoyed.

God talks about chastening in Hebrews 12. He chastens us because we are His children and we enjoy the peaceable fruit of righteousness when we submit to His chastening.

We need to learn to run to Father when we screw up. He chastens us to draw us close to Him ... don't hide from God like Adam did ... run to Him with our broken heart because we broke fellowship with Him, climb up on His lap and let Him hold us close and apply His healing balm on our self-inflicted wound.




PaulThomson said:
The Holy Spirit is given to us as God's expression of His genuine desire to accept us in out present condition.
Once we are born again, we are no longer the same as the "present condition" we were in before we were born again. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus.




PaulThomson said:
According to the deposit parable, if we become worse before the day of resurrection, than we were before receiving the Holy Spirit He is under no obligation to leave the Holy Spirit with us beyond the handover date and can refuse to include us in His millennial kingdom
"become worse before the day of resurrection, than we were before receiving the Holy Spirit" ??? How is that even possible ???

The Holy Spirit works within each and every born again believer, producing spiritual fruit within the believer, setting the fruit of the Spirit against the desires of the flesh and over time the believer desires the fruit of the Spirit more than the fleshly desires and the fleshly desires melt away. This is a maturing process. We start out as newborn babes desiring the sincere milk of the Word that we may grow thereby. As we grow, the things we enjoyed before we were born again do not hold the same appeal to us.


1 Peter 1:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

vs 4 – our inheritance is incorruptible ... it does not fade away ... it is reserved in heaven for us.

vs 5 – we are kept by the power of God. He is faithful and I believe He will keep me.

God keeping me does not mean I sit idle ... He does tell us He created us unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. The only "good works" though are the "works" wrought in us by the Holy Spirit

... that fruit we are to hold out to all with whom we come into contact ... love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, faith, temperance ... who doesn’t like a little of that in their life???

... speak God's Word to all we meet ... someone doesn't like you because you tell them God's Word??? Jesus warns us we will be hated for His name's sake so don't be shocked when God's Word is rejected but don't stop speaking.

... love one another ... if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

If we find it grievous to do those things God would have us do, we might want to do a checkup from the neck up to see if we have been drawn away from Him ...
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Apr 27, 2023
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thank you for confirming that you think answer to prayer is dependent upon upon you and not God.
It is both, and since it only on you that must mean God usually doesn't answer. Thank you for recognizing that.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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The Holy Spirit is not the owner in this analogy who moves in to the house.
The Lord Jesus Christ bought us. He paid the ransom. He laid His life down.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.




PaulThomson said:
He is the down-payment guaranteeing future ownership at and beyond the settlement date, the resurrection.
According to Ephesians 1:13, we were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise.

The seal represents ownership. We belong to God.

“The seal is therefore the Holy Spirit Himself, and His presence in the believer denotes ownership and security. The sealing with the Spirit is not an emotional feeling or some mysterious inward experience.” (Gaebelein)
sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
HELPS Word-studies
(sphragizo from sphragis = seal, engraved object used to make a mark - denoting ownership, approval, or closure of something normally done by pressing into heated wax usually attached to a document or letter) means to set a seal upon or to mark with a seal. To mark so as to certify that something is so. Seals were used to make something secure, to serve as a guarantee of the correctness of the contents, to indicate authenticity, to indicate ownership.

And please note that in addition to representing ownership, according to Ephesians 1:14, the Holy Spirit is also the earnest of our inheritance. In Romans we are told we are joint heirs with Christ:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
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Mar 23, 2016
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The problem still remains, which Lord Jesus Christ is the true one. We have thousands of different Jesus's to chose from. It all depends on what interpretation we apply to the name Jesus. Every denomination and religion has their own "Jesus".

There's no need to confuse what is already an incredibly difficult task of identifying the real Jesus Christ, without adding Greek translations which make it impossible. As all that does is muddy the water even more than it already is.

It's common knowledge that most people approach the bible with a preconceived idea of what they want it to say. Then they go about twisting the interpretation to build their own false doctrines.
The problem with the Bible is you can make it say whatever you want it to and if you're slick and smooth you can convince others to come on board.

So we have a smorgasbord of interpretations, to suit every agenda and movement. We have thousands of conflicting Christian denominations, each claiming to be the only true one and the rest are all pagan.

It's all very well to quote scriptures which ask believers to unite as one Church, but we know that's not the reality and it can never happen while everyone does what's right in his own eyes and ignores what the bible teaches. Those scriptures were not given to unite the Church, but they were given to condemn those who falsely professes faith in Christ.
:rolleyes: ... a simple "no, I did not read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 - 3" would have sufficed.
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Mar 7, 2024
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Yes but the are all under headings that they don't actually support when read in their context. Anyone can create a table of bible verse under headings. The question is, "Can they rationally justify placing those verse within those categories to prove the headings?" So far you have been unwilling to choose even one that you can mount a reasonable contextual argument for.
No you can't use that reverse psychology, nonsense on me. I have challenged anyone to demonstrate how any of those 100 verses don't fit into the TULIP table. And so far nobody has been able to step up to the plate and defend their false gospel view.

I have given you a 100 verses to prove TULIP, you haven't given me one to support your Arminian heresy
 
Mar 7, 2024
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:rolleyes: ... a simple "no, I did not read 1 Corinthians chapters 1 - 3" would have sufficed.
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Dead wrong, I read those verses many times but I never twisted them to fit a false narrative nor did I misapply them to push a false doctrine as you have done.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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They were sealed by the Holy Spirit. We are clueless persons who live 2000 years later.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit no longer seals the born again one?




7thMoon said:
It represents inheritance. I think you are doing eisegesis.
The seal represents ownership. I provided several definitions for the Greek word sphragízō (translated "sealed" in Eph 1:13):

“The seal is therefore the Holy Spirit Himself, and His presence in the believer denotes ownership and security. The sealing with the Spirit is not an emotional feeling or some mysterious inward experience.” (Gaebelein)
sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
HELPS Word-studies
(sphragizo from sphragis = seal, engraved object used to make a mark - denoting ownership, approval, or closure of something normally done by pressing into heated wax usually attached to a document or letter) means to set a seal upon or to mark with a seal. To mark so as to certify that something is so. Seals were used to make something secure, to serve as a guarantee of the correctness of the contents, to indicate authenticity, to indicate ownership.

The Holy Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance. The earnest [Greek arrabōn] is a down payment:

arrhabōn ("down-payment pledge") is the regular term in NT times for "earnest-money," i.e. advance-payment that guarantees the rest will be given. 728 (arrhabṓn) then represents full security backed by the purchaser who supplies sufficient proof they will fulfill the entire pledge (promise).
HELPS Word-studies
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Mar 23, 2016
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Dead wrong, I read those verses many times but I never twisted them to fit a false narrative nor did I misapply them to push a false doctrine as you have done.
it's your choice to follow your minister and ignore the plain words in Scripture.

1 Corinthians 1 [NLT]:

1 I appeal to you, dear brothers and sisters, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, to live in harmony with each other. Let there be no divisions in the church. Rather, be of one mind, united in thought and purpose.

11 For some members of Chloe’s household have told me about your quarrels, my dear brothers and sisters.

12 Some of you are saying, “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Peter, or “I follow only Christ.”


1 Corinthians 3 [NLT]:

3 for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world?

4 When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world?


I will read what is written in Scripture, believe what is written, and heed the warning.
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Mar 23, 2016
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Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The Holy Spirit no longer seals the born again one?
Yep
I do not agree. I believe the Holy Spirit continues to seal born again believers to this day.




7thMoon said:
And you totally cherry-picked ownership of security marking.
I didn't "cherry-pick" ... I provided several definitions from several sources.

please provide your definition of sphragizo. thanks.
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Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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I wish I can find out when I can come back here to post... when everybody will be sober.
 
Apr 27, 2023
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I do not agree. I believe the Holy Spirit continues to seal born again believers to this day.





I didn't "cherry-pick" ... I provided several definitions from several sources.

please provide your definition of sphragizo. thanks.
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Seal of inheritance.