Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
Real love isn't forced or "automatic".

You're married, right? Would you have preferred your wife to have loved you by force or by her own free will? You'd want her to love you by her free will, right? So why would it be different for God? He is after all the one who instituted marriage.

And where does it say loving your children means that you let them run free, wild and crazy? A good loving Father, would teach them and help them to mature in wisdom. That's what God has always demonstrated in the Bible. Look at Jesus who is the Father's Son. The Father loves His Son. Is Jesus running free, wild and crazy?


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Agree with You 100%
 
Now, for you NR folks who so dearly love your god FreeWill, I have a question for you which comes via an analogy from real life. I use such analogies because, as I have often said in this thread, Natural Revelation (i.e. life as we all know it in this world) never contradicts Special Revelation. (You might recall my New Birth analogy?) Biblical revelation always harmonizes quite nicely with life. So, let's get started on our short journey.

You're driving down this remote country road and off to the side of the road, you see this body laying in the dirt. You slow down, wondering: "Should I get out or just keep on truckin'?" You honk your horn to see if the body responds, and it doesn't. So, you decide to exit your vehicle to take a closer look. It's a young male laying face down. You turn him over and he's still unconscious. But you check his vital signs and find he still has a pulse. He's still alive but unresponsive to your voice and touch. So, now you must decide what to do. Since you're a FreeWill Christian who is always sensitive to trampling on or violating anyone eles's inalienable, God-given right to choose, you decide that it's best to let God, nature, the beasts of the forests or whatever to ultimately decide this poor unfortunate guy's fate, assuming he never regains consciousness to decide his own. You wouldn't even want to be an accessory-after-the-fact in violating this poor soul's free will, so you decide to not call any emergency responders to alert them to this young fella's plight because they would likely contravene his free will by carting him off to some hospital where they might have to perform some serious surgery on him in an attempt to save him -- without them ever receiving his free will consent. So, you get back into your car and drive off, praising God that he gave you the opportunity to preserve someone's inalienable right to choose.

Now my question: But would you really believe that you did the Christian thing by this badly injured, unconscious man by meticulously avoiding, in every way possible, any and all infrigements upon his God-given right to make his own free will choices?
 
Rufus said:
Now, for you NR folks who so dearly love your god FreeWill, I have a question for you which comes via an analogy from real life. I use such analogies because, as I have often said in this thread, Natural Revelation (i.e. life as we all know it in this world) never contradicts Special Revelation. (You might recall my New Birth analogy?) Biblical revelation always harmonizes quite nicely with life. So, let's get started on our short journey.

You're driving down this remote country road and off to the side of the road, you see this body laying in the dirt. You slow down, wondering: "Should I get out or just keep on truckin'?" You honk your horn to see if the body responds, and it doesn't. So, you decide to exit your vehicle to take a closer look. It's a young male laying face down. You turn him over and he's still unconscious. But you check his vital signs and find he still has a pulse. He's still alive but unresponsive to your voice and touch. So, now you must decide what to do. Since you're a FreeWill Christian who is always sensitive to trampling on or violating anyone eles's inalienable, God-given right to choose, you decide that it's best to let God, nature, the beasts of the forests or whatever to ultimately decide this poor unfortunate guy's fate, assuming he never regains consciousness to decide his own. You wouldn't even want to be an accessory-after-the-fact in violating this poor soul's free will, so you decide to not call any emergency responders to alert them to this young fella's plight because they would likely contravene his free will by carting him off to some hospital where they might have to perform some serious surgery on him in an attempt to save him -- without them ever receiving his free will consent. So, you get back into your car and drive off, praising God that he gave you the opportunity to preserve someone's inalienable right to choose.

Now my question: But would you really believe that you did the Christian thing by this badly injured, unconscious man by meticulously avoiding, in every way possible, any and all infrigements upon his God-given right to make his own free will choices?
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I would Pray for healing and when he was healed lead him to the Lord.

That's a Divine Appointment designed by God for me to be there and be a Witness for God.
 
My "Free Will" happened when God made me aware of Who He is and invited Himself to be my Savior. When I "Free Will" accepted, my Free Will ended.

After that, I became a Slave and He is the Master. I now do His Will. [in Biblical laymen's terminology]
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
I grew up in a lineage of Rabbis who then my Grandfather became a Born Again Evangelist. And even though we had structure, we still let our children have freedom to make many choices without interfering. We did not allow anything in the homes but we did not monitor them like many Christians do whose children REBEL when they are old enough to leave the home. All of us got see some things weren't as cool as people led on and when we left the home we stayed in Church.
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So...in the real world -- where the rubber meets the road -- the Older, Wise Adults in the room had to infringe [at times] on the free will choices of their Foolish, Unruly Children -- for their protection and and their good, would you say?

On the scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being "best"), how would you rate your upbringing or the rearing of your own children to be in accord with the Wisdom taught in Proverbs?

Finally, since you and your ancestors obviously felt justified in circumventing or curtailing chidren's "God-given" free will choices, then please explain to me how an infinitely Good and All-Wise God isn't justified in also curtaiing, circumenting, contravening Foolish Mankind's free will to serve his holy purposes, for the individual's good and for the general welfare of all men? Have you never read:

1 Cor 1:25
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength?
NIV

Yet, somehow in your "theological" world, God would be a monstrous, vile dictator if he ever vioiated anyone's "free will". Your theology, sir, is not very consistent with Natural Revelation, is it? OR...did you and your ancestors also consider yourselves to be vile, evil monsters for reigning in the folly that resides in children's hearts by contravening their "inalienable right" to choose whatever they wanted?
 
Rufus said:
So...in the real world -- where the rubber meets the road -- the Older, Wise Adults in the room had to infringe [at times] on the free will choices of their Foolish, Unruly Children -- for their protection and and their good, would you say?

On the scale of 1 to 10 (with 10 being "best"), how would you rate your upbringing or the rearing of your own children to be in accord with the Wisdom taught in Proverbs?

Finally, since you and your ancestors obviously felt justified in circumventing or curtailing chidren's "God-given" free will choices, then please explain to me how an infinitely Good and All-Wise God isn't justified in also curtaiing, circumenting, contravening Foolish Mankind's free will to serve his holy purposes, for the individual's good and for the general welfare of all men? Have you never read:

1 Cor 1:25
25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength?
NIV

Yet, somehow in your "theological" world, God would be a monstrous, vile dictator if he ever vioiated anyone's "free will". Your theology, sir, is not very consistent with Natural Revelation, is it? OR...did you and your ancestors also consider yourselves to be vile, evil monsters for reigning in the folly that resides in children's hearts by contravening their "inalienable right" to choose whatever they wanted?
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Rabbis, like all Jewish males enter Synagogue at age 6 and know the Torah word for word in memory by age 13. Also during that time we study the Prophets and Psalms + Talmud. A male is considered a Man at age 13 in my culture. So we take a break from studies and work jobs/concentrate on public schooling/etc, be a teenager finally. And within a few years we go back into full time study. In my case, I began the New Testament studies. And then both interactively.

So, you have no idea what I mean when I say we let our children run wild. Our childhood is nothing like yours that could be filled with youth sports, doing normal kid things, etc. You're on break most of your youth. We are not.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Yep, I have used A.W. Pink myself because many Reformed use him not realizing he isn't Reformed at all :ROFL::ROFL:

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He preached this to the SAVED!
Reformed think OSAS even without seeking forgiveness of new sins :eek:
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That is patently false! That is downright DISINFORMATION. He neither believed that, nor do any Reformed people I know. You obviously don't know what the "P" stands for in the TULIP acronym, do you?
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
Rabbis, like all Jewish males enter Synagogue at age 6 and know the Torah word for word in memory by age 13. Also during that time we study the Prophets and Psalms + Talmud. A male is considered a Man at age 13 in my culture. So we take a break from studies and work jobs/concentrate on public schooling/etc, be a teenager finally. And within a few years we go back into full time study. In my case, I began the New Testament studies. And then both interactively.

So, you have no idea what I mean when I say we let our children run wild. Our childhood is nothing like yours that could be filled with youth sports, doing normal kid things, etc. You're on break most of your youth. We are not.
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And you have no idea on how to answer questions honestly and straightforwardly. So the children in "your culture" were not brought up in the "fear and admonition of the Lord"? Do the Jewish Adults bring up their children according to Solomon's wisdom in Proverbs?

You are so blinded by your non-biblical presuppositions, you can't even bring yourself to admit that your pet theology -- a theology that worships a god you NRs call "free will" --is totally inconsistent with the real world -- even though you have already conceded that you had to circumvent young ones' "free will" at times. :rolleyes: And if I were a betting man (which I was in my previous life), I'd bet my bottom dollar you didn't feel anything close to how NRs blasphemously describe an All Good, All-Wise God if he dare violate someone's innate, inalienable right to make free choices. :rolleyes:
 
Rufus said:
That is patently false! That is downright DISINFORMATION. He neither believed that, nor do any Reformed people I know. You obviously don't know what the "P" stands for in the TULIP acronym, do you?
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He was not Reformed.

Was Arthur W Pink a Calvinist?
His impolitic preaching of Calvinist doctrine resulted in a unanimous resolve of the Baptist Fraternal of New South Wales not to endorse him.


The Baptist, Calvinists, DID NOT ENDORSE HIM because he was not REFORMED!
 
Cameron143 said:
I don't care if he's reformed. I just need him to know the difference between religion and it's practice.
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A Reformed person would know that there should be no difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy; for when the former is correct, then the latter invariably follows righteously. As a man believeth in his heart so his hands will do.
 
Rufus said:
And you have no idea on how to answer questions honestly and straightforwardly. So the children in "your culture" were not brought up in the "fear and admonition of the Lord"? Do the Jewish Adults bring up their children according to Solomon's wisdom in Proverbs?

You are so blinded by your non-biblical presuppositions, you can't even bring yourself to admit that your pet theology -- a theology that worships a god you NRs call "free will" --is totally inconsistent with the real world -- even though you have already conceded that you had to circumvent young ones' "free will" at times. :rolleyes: And if I were a betting man (which I was in my previous life), I'd bet my bottom dollar you didn't feel anything close to how NRs blasphemously describe an All Good, All-Wise God if he dare violate someone's innate, inalienable right to make free choices. :rolleyes:
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We knew more about God at age 13 than most typical Christian men do at age 50.
 
I still don’t get the fuss about free will. We all make choices, right? …. When I study, I never think about how I should interpret or understand what I’m reading—let’s see now, how do I make this reformed or not reformed. Uh-oh, is this a Calvinist teaching…or maybe not? Oh my!

Come on, sibs—let’s let the Holy Spirit do the teaching.
 
Rufus said:
A Reformed person would know that there should be no difference between orthodoxy and orthopraxy; for when the former is correct, then the latter invariably follows righteously. As a man believeth in his heart so his hands will do.
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And yet, people go unministered to all the time. So...very few actually practice true religion. I see it here all the time. Hence, give me a Samaritan any day over a priest or a Levite. I've met enough doctrinally sound individuals who do little or nothing to actually lighten burdens or break bonds to fill a lifetime.
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
He was not Reformed.

Was Arthur W Pink a Calvinist?
His impolitic preaching of Calvinist doctrine resulted in a unanimous resolve of the Baptist Fraternal of New South Wales not to endorse him.


The Baptist, Calvinists, DID NOT ENDORSE HIM because he was not REFORMED!
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And just for your info, that is probably a very good thing! I don't endorse all Reformed Baptist churches either because of their views on the Law and the uses of the Law, especially Calvin's "three uses" of it.

But other Reformed folks heartily endorsed Pink for the most part.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Arthur-Pink.html

P.S. It might also interest you to know that because I don't subscribe 100% to Reformed Theology, I am barred from joining any of Puritan boards online. I am barred because I don't adhere to Covenant Theology. Moral to the Story: Reformed folks have their quirks, too.
 
Cameron143 said:
And yet, people go unministered to all the time. So...very few actually practice true religion. I see it here all the time. Hence, give me a Samaritan any day over a priest or a Levite. I've met enough doctrinally sound individuals who do little or nothing to actually lighten burdens or break bonds to fill a lifetime.
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Many of these people don't want to be ministered to. There's none so blind who will not see. ( Jesus spoke of such in Jn 9:41.) I see this all the time. True and undefiled religion in the sight of God is to do good unto others, while keeping oneself unstained by the world (Jas 1:27).
 
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