Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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MerSee said:
Luke Chapter 13

1 And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

6 He spoke also this parable: A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it, and found none. 7 And he said to the dresser of the vineyard: Behold, for these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down therefore: why cumbereth it the ground? 8 But he answering, said to him: Lord, let it alone this year also, until I dig about it, and dung it. 9 And if happily it bear fruit: but if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. 10 And he was teaching in their synagogue on their sabbath.

11 And behold there was a woman, who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years: and she was bowed together, neither could she look upwards at all. 12 Whom when Jesus saw, he called her unto him, and said to her: Woman, thou art delivered from thy infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue (being angry that Jesus had healed on the sabbath) answering, said to the multitude: Six days there are wherein you ought to work. In them therefore come, and be healed; and not on the sabbath day. 15 And the Lord answering him, said: Ye hypocrites, doth not every one of you, on the sabbath day, loose his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead them to water?

16 And ought not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the things that were gloriously done by him. 18 He said therefore: To what is the kingdom of God like, and whereunto shall I resemble it? 19 It is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and cast into his garden, and it grew and became a great tree, and the birds of the air lodged in the branches thereof. 20 And again he said: Whereunto shall I esteem the kingdom of God to be like?

21 It is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 22 And he went through the cities and towns teaching, and making his journey to Jerusalem. 23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

26 Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And there shall come from the east and the west, and the north and the south; and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, they are last that shall be first; and they are first that shall be last.

31 The same day, there came some of the Pharisees, saying to him: Depart, and get thee hence, for Herod hath a mind to kill thee. 32 And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I am consummated. 33 Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following, because it cannot be that a prophet perish, out of Jerusalem. 34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee, how often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings, and thou wouldest not? 35 Behold your house shall be left to you desolate. And I say to you, that you shall not see me till the time come, when you shall say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
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So grateful for the mercy to respond to in thanksgiving and praise to this forgiveness given to respond to in thanksgiving and praise and be made new by God, not me as I thought to do at first, not seeing then to be dead to the first born me willingly daily


Luke 18:9-14

New International Version



The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
 
selahsays said:
So the non-Elect will use their free will to reject the call?
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didn't Pharaoh, do not the self righteous ones, did not the King of Egypt do that. Oh Father have mercy on me thank you for Son to us all to believe or not believe you in your mercy to us all to choose to believe you or not, thank you, I need you
Anyone else?
God is Love, unfortunately not seen by some many or few, God knows what God is allowing and doing in reality, therefore, one can rest in and be rested in trust. Me learning this truth daily standing in trust it is done for us the people that began at that cross to cross over in belief to see it, as long as one will not give up on it, trusting Son is risen where new life as born again is given from Father to me this I now see it is not I that do it or can Do it. It is God that did it by Son once for us all to choose to believe God or not personally and be made new over time in not giving up to see new humbly so
 
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Rufus said:
Not surprising you hate Pauline Theology. Most heretics do. But for you info, at the end of the day Paul's doctrine was given to him by Jesus Christ himself. (See Jn 16:12-15). So, by rejecting Paul's teaching, you are unwittingly rejecting Christ's teaching because He was Paul's Source, as he was with all the other apostles!

It seems your ignorance of the scriptures knows no bounds, and you also have zero awareness of the depth of our self-deception.
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Paul's doctrine was Jesus DBR, which is mine from the very words of GOD Himself.
But your soteriology comes directly from Paul, who could not save you if he tried.

James Leo Garrett, Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, made this statement about Your Doctrine..

“FROM AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO TO THE TWENTIETH CENTURY, WESTERN CHRISTIANITY HAS TENDED TO INTERPRET THE DOCTRINE OF ELECTION FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF AND WITH REGARD TO INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEINGS. DURING THOSE SAME CENTURIES THE DOCTRINE HAS BEEN FAR LESS EMPHASIZED AND SELDOM EVER CONTROVERSIAL IN EASTERN ORTHODOXY. IS IT POSSIBLE THAT AUGUSTINE AND LATER CALVIN, WITH THE HELP OF MANY OTHERS, CONTRIBUTED TO A HYPER INDIVIDUALIZATION OF THIS DOCTRINE THAT WAS HARDLY WARRANTED BY ROMANS 9-11, EPH. 1, AND I PETER 2? IS IT NOT TRUE THAT THE MAJOR EMPHASIS IN BOTH TESTAMENTS FALLS UPON AN ELECT PEOPLE — ISRAEL (OT) AND DISCIPLES OR CHURCH (NT)?” – JAMES LEO GARRETT
 
MerSee said:
Luke Chapter 13

1 And there were present, at that very time, some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And he answering, said to them: Think you that these Galileans were sinners above all the men of Galilee, because they suffered such things? 3 No, I say to you: but unless you shall do penance, you shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen upon whom the tower fell in Siloe, and slew them: think you, that they also were debtors above all the men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

6 He spoke also this parable: A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it, and found none. 7 And he said to the dresser of the vineyard: Behold, for these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and I find none. Cut it down therefore: why cumbereth it the ground? 8 But he answering, said to him: Lord, let it alone this year also, until I dig about it, and dung it. 9 And if happily it bear fruit: but if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. 10 And he was teaching in their synagogue on their sabbath.

11 And behold there was a woman, who had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years: and she was bowed together, neither could she look upwards at all. 12 Whom when Jesus saw, he called her unto him, and said to her: Woman, thou art delivered from thy infirmity. 13 And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue (being angry that Jesus had healed on the sabbath) answering, said to the multitude: Six days there are wherein you ought to work. In them therefore come, and be healed; and not on the sabbath day. 15 And the Lord answering him, said: Ye hypocrites, doth not every one of you, on the sabbath day, loose his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead them to water?

16 And ought not this daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the things that were gloriously done by him. 18 He said therefore: To what is the kingdom of God like, and whereunto shall I resemble it? 19 It is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and cast into his garden, and it grew and became a great tree, and the birds of the air lodged in the branches thereof. 20 And again he said: Whereunto shall I esteem the kingdom of God to be like?

21 It is like to leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. 22 And he went through the cities and towns teaching, and making his journey to Jerusalem. 23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

26 Then you shall begin to say: We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 And he shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are: depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And there shall come from the east and the west, and the north and the south; and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, they are last that shall be first; and they are first that shall be last.

31 The same day, there came some of the Pharisees, saying to him: Depart, and get thee hence, for Herod hath a mind to kill thee. 32 And he said to them: Go and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and do cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I am consummated. 33 Nevertheless I must walk today and tomorrow, and the day following, because it cannot be that a prophet perish, out of Jerusalem. 34 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent to thee, how often would I have gathered thy children as the bird doth her brood under her wings, and thou wouldest not? 35 Behold your house shall be left to you desolate. And I say to you, that you shall not see me till the time come, when you shall say: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
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Repent is, to me:

Luke 18:13-14

New International Version



13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”
 
Rufus said:
Yeah...there's a name for that, as I recall.... :coffee:
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Slayer of Hypocrites.
Only a hypocrite claiming to be a follower of Christ would defame God by forcing God's Sovereignty to mean God does not allow accountability for people to accept Him or reject Him.

“A MAN CAN NO MORE DIMINISH GOD’S GLORY BY REFUSING TO WORSHIP HIM THAN A LUNATIC CAN PUT OUT THE SUN BY SCRIBBLING THE WORD, ‘DARKNESS’ ON THE WALLS OF HIS CELL.” – C.S. LEWIS
 
MerSee said:
Those who choose unbelief are not His sheep/elect.

John 10:26-30
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.
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The most revealing portion of these scriptures is found in verse 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.
This shows who Jesus is speaking to has "rejected Him." That is the beauty of "Free Will."

There are those who "do not believe" = non-sheep
There are those who "will believe" = sheep

Free Will!


“A MAN CAN NO MORE DIMINISH GOD’S GLORY BY REFUSING TO WORSHIP HIM THAN A LUNATIC CAN PUT OUT THE SUN BY SCRIBBLING THE WORD, ‘DARKNESS’ ON THE WALLS OF HIS CELL.” – C.S. LEWIS
 
FollowerofShiloh said:
:cool:
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Not me, I am in need for God's love and mercy given me, whether or not I sin again, to see God's love is a gift to have and not think I am ever good enough, when to me God is the one and only one good to me I am learning this daily
Giving God all the credit please not me. I say study to know God, read the Bible. as a whole not by Chapters and verses to think one to know
the entire Bible tells me this, once reading it to know God Father of risen Son personally, the truth of Matt 18:24-35 sets in, this reveals truth for me to see to not ever have to go back to God's mercy seat, taking this being forgiven for granted as that person spoken of did, and condemned himself in not appreciating being forgiven
 
From one of the greatest EX-Calvinist A.W. Tozer:

“GOD SOVEREIGNLY DECREED THAT MAN SHOULD BE FREE TO EXERCISE MORAL CHOICE, AND MAN FROM THE BEGINNING HAS FULFILLED THAT DECREE BY MAKING HIS CHOICE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. WHEN HE CHOOSES TO DO EVIL, HE DOES NOT THEREBY COUNTERVAIL THE SOVEREIGN WILL OF GOD BUT FULFILLS IT, INASMUCH AS THE ETERNAL DECREE DECIDED NOT WHICH CHOICE THE MAN SHOULD MAKE BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE FREE TO MAKE IT. IF IN HIS ABSOLUTE FREEDOM GOD HAS WILLED TO GIVE MAN LIMITED FREEDOM, WHO IS THERE TO STAY HIS HAND OR SAY, ‘WHAT DOEST THOU?’ MAN’S WILL IS FREE BECAUSE GOD IS SOVEREIGN. A GOD LESS THAN SOVEREIGN COULD NOT BESTOW MORAL FREEDOM UPON HIS CREATURES. HE WOULD BE AFRAID TO DO SO.” – A.W. TOZER, THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY: THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
 
homwardbound said:
Not me, I am in need for God's love and mercy given me, whether or not I sin again, to see God's love is a gift to have and not think I am ever good enough, when to me God is the one and only one good to me I am learning this daily
Giving God all the credit please not me. I say study to know God, read the Bible. as a whole not by Chapters and verses to think one to know
the entire Bible tells me this, once reading it to know God Father of risen Son personally, the truth of Matt 18:24-35 sets in, this reveals truth for me to see to not ever have to go back to God's mercy seat, taking this being forgiven for granted as that person spoken of did, and condemned himself in not appreciating being forgiven
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Amen!
I preach Mercy to this group of 5 doctrines of Grace all of the time.
As a Jew who like all male Jews ages 6-13, went to synagogue and learned the Torah/Tanakh/Talmud.

God's Mercy is the key to how anyone of us can survive.
 
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FollowerofShiloh said:
From one of the greatest EX-Calvinist A.W. Tozer:

“GOD SOVEREIGNLY DECREED THAT MAN SHOULD BE FREE TO EXERCISE MORAL CHOICE, AND MAN FROM THE BEGINNING HAS FULFILLED THAT DECREE BY MAKING HIS CHOICE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL. WHEN HE CHOOSES TO DO EVIL, HE DOES NOT THEREBY COUNTERVAIL THE SOVEREIGN WILL OF GOD BUT FULFILLS IT, INASMUCH AS THE ETERNAL DECREE DECIDED NOT WHICH CHOICE THE MAN SHOULD MAKE BUT THAT HE SHOULD BE FREE TO MAKE IT. IF IN HIS ABSOLUTE FREEDOM GOD HAS WILLED TO GIVE MAN LIMITED FREEDOM, WHO IS THERE TO STAY HIS HAND OR SAY, ‘WHAT DOEST THOU?’ MAN’S WILL IS FREE BECAUSE GOD IS SOVEREIGN. A GOD LESS THAN SOVEREIGN COULD NOT BESTOW MORAL FREEDOM UPON HIS CREATURES. HE WOULD BE AFRAID TO DO SO.” – A.W. TOZER, THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE HOLY: THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD
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Without free choice to choose to believe God or not, God would not be able to claim God loves us all. No choice to choose, would not be free will would it? and is not love is it?
All that got left after the cross of Jesus is:
To believe God or not, To be new in love and mercy to all, as one gets revealed this or not, as God chooses who get revealed it or not, knowing each person personally in their motive(s).
God cannot be stopped as in Acts 5 towards the end, when Gamaliel told the people to not harm those disciples, for if it be true God is risen from the dead then they would be fighting against God. As they walked away in gratefulness to be whipped for preaching he is risen to be saved
 
homwardbound said:
Without free choice to choose to believe God or not, God would not be able to claim God loves us all. No choice to choose, would not be free will would it? and is not love is it?
All that got left after the cross of Jesus is:
To believe God or not, To be new in love and mercy to all, as one gets revealed this or not, as God chooses who get revealed it or not, knowing each person personally in their motive(s).
God cannot be stopped as in Acts 5 towards the end, when Gamaliel told the people to not harm those disciples, for if it be true God is risen from the dead then they would be fighting against God. As they walked away in gratefulness to be whipped for preaching he is risen to be saved
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Amen!

It does not diminish Who God is if someone rejects Him or accepts Him. He does not need any of us. So how could what we do ever effect Who He is? It's impossible to diminish God. He IS The Most High God!
 
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homwardbound said:
Without free choice to choose to believe God or not, God would not be able to claim God loves us all. No choice to choose, would not be free will would it? and is not love is it?
All that got left after the cross of Jesus is:
To believe God or not, To be new in love and mercy to all, as one gets revealed this or not, as God chooses who get revealed it or not, knowing each person personally in their motive(s).
God cannot be stopped as in Acts 5 towards the end, when Gamaliel told the people to not harm those disciples, for if it be true God is risen from the dead then they would be fighting against God. As they walked away in gratefulness to be whipped for preaching he is risen to be saved
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How can God "[love] us all" when he hates all sinners? Did God love Esau whom he rejected from participating in his covenant?
 
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Cameron143 said:
I do agree a nerve was hit. But anyone here can tell you I'm never bothered by what someone posts to me.
I do apologize if my post came off as patronizing. This wasn't my intention. I'll work on that,
Have a great evening.
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OK

Thanks
 
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